Register now to get rid of these ads!

hillborn injection on the street?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by trvguy, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. Chevy Gasser
    Joined: Jan 23, 2007
    Posts: 684

    Chevy Gasser
    Member

    Running it on the street is no problem. Driving it all the time will be a problem. Have fun playin' with it!
     
  2. ClayPigeonKiller
    Joined: Mar 3, 2010
    Posts: 203

    ClayPigeonKiller
    Member

    "Contrary to the naysayers, mechanical fuel injection can be tuned to be perfectly streetable. We stood right beside the car as Keith leaned in and hit the starter, and the engine fired to life and idled like it had EFI . . . and he never touched the throttle linkage. That's what 30 years of tuning experience will get you. A cockpit-mounted FI jet controller and exhaust temp gauge allow him to adjust the air/fuel ratio to allow easy cruising or balls-out blasts of power."

    http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hrdp_1011_keith_robinsons_street_legal_sprint_car/index.html

    He did it. It must be do-able.

    Think about it... though not hillborn injection, early corvettes, older diesels, older mercedes benz cars... all had mechanical injection.
     
  3. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,145

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    I don't remember anyone saying it is not possible to drive a Hilborn injected car on the street. The issue is how suited it is for that use. Hilborn injection is "dumb". It was intended to work well over a limited RPM range, at high loads and high throttle opening. Hilborn meters fuel based on RPMs and throttle position, that's it. On the other hand, EFI, all but the earliest carburetors, and the various mechanical injection systems designed for street use(including the ones you mentioned) don't blindly deliver fuel based on RPMs and throttle position, they meter based on what the engine is actually doing at any given moment. If you look at how the mechanical injection works on "early corvettes, older diesels, older mercedes benz cars", and the timed mechanical injection made by Bosch, Lucas, Spica, etc; Hilborn style injection is in no way comparable those.

    For anyone who chooses to believe the inherent limitations of Hilborn injections are not significant, how would you answer the following? If Hilborn injection "can be tuned to be perfectly streetable" , why is it that NO manufacturer has ever used Hilborn style injection on a street car, but instead used injection systems that are more complicated, and more expensive to produce? Although car companies are rightfully cautious about using new technologies, they do like to save money. If Hilborn injection can be "perfectly streetable" it seems like at least one road car manufacturer would have used during the 60+ years since Stu Hilborn introduced the technology. Why did the unlimited, cost is no object, Can-Am cars of the late '60 use more complicated mechanical fuel injection rather than constant flow Hilborn?

    In the example you mentioned the driver has to manually adjustments fuel delivery based on operating conditions. That pretty much makes my point.
     
  4. rotten johnny
    Joined: Mar 14, 2009
    Posts: 535

    rotten johnny
    Member
    from Mi


    Please tell me why toyota still puts floor mats in their cars.
     
  5. Mike The Photo Guy
    Joined: Jun 25, 2008
    Posts: 231

    Mike The Photo Guy
    Member

    More of Johnny Rotten's Car!
    Mike TPG
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  6. Reson8customs
    Joined: May 27, 2011
    Posts: 2

    Reson8customs
    Member
    from Az

    I'm getting ready to remove my leaking tri power and replace it with a 6-71 and 4 hole Hilborn converted to EFI I'll let you guys know how it goes.
     
  7. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,506

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Incredibly cool car right there...

    Found my way back to this thread because I may be doing a deal that will include me ending up with a set of vintage sbc hilborns, if it comes to pass, I intend to attempt running them on the street.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
    mad mikey, loudbang and Chucky like this.
  8. 19Eddy30
    Joined: Mar 27, 2011
    Posts: 749

    19Eddy30
    Member
    from VA

    I have ran one on street with blower , IT CAN BE DONE!!!
    It's not just a bolt on and GO !!!!
    It's up to YOU , if it works or Not !!
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
    loudbang likes this.
  9. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,506

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    See post #45. ;):)
     
  10. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 7,585

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    Saw a guy standin' by a flathead digger at Eagle Field. Kinda 'hip lookin' dude, and another one walks up (same type)
    The late one drawls, "What's cool, man?"
    One standing answers, "Aw, nuthin'..."

    NOTHING IS COOL .
     
    mad mikey, loudbang and falcongeorge like this.
  11. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 7,001

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    I have a Crower stack for a big block Chevy that sure would like to get going on a drag car.
     
    mad mikey and loudbang like this.
  12. the dial a jets are cool but be very careful how they are put in the cockpit. no fuel lines should be routed into it for obvious reasons. i have run all kinds of mechanical injection on race cars but not on the street. i have a four hole efi on my coupe. i use the smaller size bore for good tip in. its controlled by a fast xfi-2 box. works great. andy starr at hilborn electronic sales is the man. great service. can't say enough.
     
    mad mikey and loudbang like this.
  13. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,506

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    If I do this deal, it will be on a mid-sixties style t-bucket, with an exposed engine EFI is out of the question. I might do that if I was putting it on my S10, but not for an otherwise sixties style car with an exposed engine.
    I should say again, I don't know for sure if this is going to come together, its part of a possible trade for one of my project cars, I just decided to do some research and stumbled across this thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
    dana barlow likes this.
  14. toxic waste
    Joined: Dec 18, 2011
    Posts: 288

    toxic waste
    Member
    from Illinois

    Look up Insta Jet
     
  15. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,506

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Wow, yea. Thanks for the tip, very cool! I have seen guys just throwing this idea around, its neat that theres a "kit" out there for it that is more or less "plug and play". That really could be the ticket.
     
  16. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,506

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Toxic waste, are you running the Insta jet?

    Heres a you tube video, seems pretty tractable.
     
    mad mikey likes this.
  17. I am kicking around the idea of doing a 2 port on my 471. The efi hilborn is pretty pricey.
     
  18. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,506

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    From what I have heard 2 port on a blower is easier to get to work on the street than an 8 stack N/A setup.
     
    mad mikey likes this.
  19. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,506

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Just looking at this video, is the spool valve in the box on the bottom, and the oxygen sensor is controlling the spool valve??

     
  20. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 38,755

    porknbeaner
    Member

    Pete Jackson started building stepped barrel valves decades ago. He originally was building a mechanical injection for his kid to run on the street or so the story goes. That was back when he was casting the stack injectors with the throttle blades moved up away from the heads, this is also a problem with running one on the street, the throttle blades heat up and have to be trimmed. What most guys do is set it up so that it runs well when hot and live with it being crappy the rest of the time.

    To run any kind of mechanical injection on the street you have to be a tuner. The easiest to run is a flying toilet, after that Enderle barn doors and hat injectors and the most difficult is stack injection. The absolute most difficult part of driving one on the street is tuning. A lot of guys use the shut off valve to trim the fuel flow for cruising so that they still have WOT response. if you don't understand how to tune and cannot tell by the sound of your motor what it needs you are pretty much screwed. You could teach a monkey to drive, tuning is a different story altogether.
     
    mad mikey and saltflats like this.
  21. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,506

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I would like to see the magazine article that was published on Pete Jacksons street set-up. It was in his sons Falcon IIRC?
     
  22. Ya GOTS ta LOVE ROTTEN JOHNNY!!!!
     
  23. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 38,755

    porknbeaner
    Member

    I can't even remember when that was. Seems like the '80s?
     
  24. toxic waste
    Joined: Dec 18, 2011
    Posts: 288

    toxic waste
    Member
    from Illinois

    No I've not run one but I'm interested in it. The servo motor controls the main jet size. Is how I understand it
     
  25. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,506

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Thanks. If the deal comes together and I end up with the intake, I will email him and get more details.
     
  26. 19Eddy30
    Joined: Mar 27, 2011
    Posts: 749

    19Eddy30
    Member
    from VA

    When I did it it in 1990, I was in my early 20's with Enderle Buzzed,
    It took a lot of time ,thinking , Notes , & different spool grinds!
    I will be checking into Insta Jet
     
  27. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,506

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I've been looking into this a bit more, the Instajet is pretty pricey, around $1500 us, but theres more to it than that. What really intrigues me is the setup he shows on youtube using the Walbro 450 electric pump.
    A new hilborn pump is around $600, and you still need a drive, if you are going to drive it with a belt, that's another $300ish new, and if you need a conventional Kinsler dial-a-jet, thats $300 plus, add a low speed and a high speed by-pass, and you are into the same kind of money.
    Just guessing here, but to me, it looks like with a conventional mechanical fuel injection pump, the Instajet needs to be mounted between the pump outlet and the barrel valve, so even if you run a line and mount it at the back of the engine, its going to be out in fairly plain sight in an open engine hot rod.
    Again, just guessing here, but I am thinking if you run the Walbro back by the tank, and run a gutted Hilborn PG150-A on the engine just for looks, you can mount the Instajet anywhere between the Walbro and the barrel valve, so you could mount it on the frame rail back under the car on the main line from the Walbro, and no-one would be able to see it, and you could probably buy a PG-150 that was hashed for cheap. It would also eliminate any issues with it losing prime. Just spitballing ideas here.
    You could even run a gutted PG150 on the timing cover and use an electric water pump mounted down low on the front frame rail
     
  28. George ,your idea's have some merit. It will still come down to controlling the fuel flow. The part throttle conditions could cause the engine to go very rich or very lean. I'll have to do some reading on the Instajet. I've driven mechanical injection with a mechanical pump around the pits at Mission. Idles fine, When you come off the idle the car lunges [not something you'd want in traffic]. I wonder if a fuel flow controller inside the car might help. Similar to what a small airplane has.
     
  29. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,506

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    This is what Benno is referring to when he talks about pulling the fuel shutoff a bit, it would presumably lean it a hair momentarily? The instajet works similar to the Kinsler dial a jet, but reacts to an oxygen sensor in the collector in real time, its an interesting idea.
    Kinsler also makes a device called a dual rate idle system, which is a solenoid that leans the idle circuit, so you can switch it on to clean up the idle, then switch it off as the car starts to move. So you can select a spool and bypass setting that gives good off-idle response, but not have an over-rich idle. I am doing my homework today!:D Theres a lot of different ways to go about this.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
  30. I went back and read his post.He was referring to a mechanical pump. Yes pulling the shut off valve would work some what,but will keep you rather busy. Your idea of an electric pump would provide a constant flow of fuel not effected by engine RPM. Which could be controlled manually and not affected to much by the Barrel Valve opening. That is,if I'm thinking this through correctly. hahaha
     
    falcongeorge likes this.

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2013 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.