When I worked on a Bonneville racer we had a schematic for the Fuel Injection setup to make it work in a Turbocharged setup. It was developed by or for the early turbo dragracers ( gassers, etc ), and I believe, some turbocharged CanAm racers. Where can I find this? I'm looking at some parts off a non blown setup, and I'd like to make sure I can convert it to a vintage Turbo/blown setup, before I try to buy it...
I have some but they were all different. Some used a #5 valve & also a S & E return too. Does the one you're look at have an "A" valve with the boost return "brain"? Call Hilborn, they have the drawings & will fax you a copy. Added: the first picture is from Jerry Kugels 258" twin turbo on my dyno back in the early '90's you can see several valves with the boost pressure bypass on the very left of the shot. The next picture was of Glenn Deeds big block (also in the early 90's) with the pressure bypass to the far right of the shot. Both of these engines set records at Bonneville that still stand today.
I'm not really sure what is inluded in the parts I'm looking at. Just want to make sure I ask the right questions... For sure it has the right manifold & butterfly's for my engine, and it might be set up for alky. I think I'd want to run gas. Not sure if it has the pump, shut off valve or any of that. I did see the flex lines going from the injectors to the valve that is linked to the throttle linkage ( barrel valve?)
I'm guessing you've read The Book on kinsler.com You'd probably need a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator.
kinsler is not a customer freindly co. i have had some questions for them about my set up, it works well but always looking to improve on it. let me know about the turbo set up . metalshaper. kinsler standerd answer ( IT WONT WORK).
We used Lucas mechanical injection, running in Can Am in the late 80's. Worked well. Borrowed a metering unit that had been reworked by Kinsler. WOW , what an improvement.
Thanks guys. I know the system can work, because it did ( does?) on the 2000HP B'ville BBC Chevy thats in the car I used to work on. ( holds a record now, if i'm not mistaking) Just wondering what it would take to build my own, lower HP, version of it... I'm trying to figure out what can of worms I'm opening up, before I start spensding cash...
X2 on the boost referenced regulator. Remember the Hilborn (etc) setups meter fuel by bypassing back to the tank, so setting up the regulator to close with boost pressure is pretty simple. I would look at the turbo Offys that ran at Indy. Not many left, but you can still find some old-timers that know those engines pretty well. Rick Gerhardt of Western Speed and Fuel in Fresno ran a turbo Offy in a supermodified in the late 80s. His dad, Fred Gerhardt, built it. Fred isn't with us anymore, but Rick might remember something about it...
Thanks... From what I remember ( I only glanced at it, I wasnt the engine guy...), it wasn't a very complicated looking deal. Although the guy who was in charge of it acted like he was practicing VooDoo... It fed the intake pressure back with one line, onto something. That must have been the regulator... So when you do that, can you adjust the amount of gain in fuel when the boost press goes up?
For example take a Holley "blue" fuel pressure regulator on the side that you adjust the pressure with the screw, it is vented to the atmosphere so it has a pressure reference. To make it work for a boost setup you take that vent, and run a hose somewhere between the outlet of the turbo, and the throttle body(s). When the engine is under let's say 5 psi of boost, the 5 psi of boost works against the regulator thus raising the fuel pressure 5 psi.
Here's a pic of an old Mallory fuel pressure regulator I used on a blow-thru carb turbo setup I did awhile back. I added the "vent tube" for the boost reference below the adjustment screw.
The regulator maintains the difference between the fuel pressure, and the reference pressure. Usually the reference pressure is atmospheric pressure. By putting manifold pressure on one side, the fuel pressure will rise to maintain the same pressure differential at the injector.
The regulator maintains the difference between the fuel pressure, and the reference pressure. Usually the reference pressure is atmospheric pressure. By putting manifold pressure on one side, the fuel pressure will rise to maintain the same pressure differential at the injector.
Hilborn makes and sells a bypass regulator for just what you are doing. Vern Tomalsin of Hilborn wrote a good booklet "How to run Fuel Injection" or something like that which explains it very clearly. But you still need to work with it. Jerry Kugel's engine is one of the best to copy IMHO. It sure works. Call Hilborn. Buy a catalog. See if you can find the book. All will become clear.
My brother recently aquired a 496 Rodeck with a blow thru system on a Crower stack. The deal was supposed to come with a book, but did not. It had a plenum similar to a TBI with two big throttle plates and none in the runners. Set up had three nozzles and was ran in a top alky boat in nor Cal. I have talked to Kinsler and more to Spud at Fuel Injection Enterprises. I have learned alot about the boost refernces regulators. Like a highspeed only it adds fuel at a set boost point. Depending on class rules you might be able to run an electric valve that is rpm activated. On a normal non blown application the pump will supply on a liner relationship to RPM, so we take fuel away on the top end because the motor does not need it. Throw a couple hair dryers on it and the fuel needs change big time. My struggle is finding out where it needs to start adding more. Kinsler will help you, but probably not over the phone asking questions. Spud Miller has been very helpfull and I believe he has some experience with this combo. We have yet to run this, but hope to soon. The guy that tuned this set up in the boat was a diesel motor guy.
It all comes down to air mass. It's possible to mathematically calculate how much air mass is going thru the engine for a given displacement and psi of manifold pressure. As HG ponited out, the fuel curve needs to reverse for boost. If you pick a safe boost A/F ratio (say 10.5 for race gas), you can go back and calculate pounds of fuel needed for any given air consumption. There are many engine builders (sprint car, etc) that have flow benches set up to test an entire fuel system. They use shop air to "boost reference" the regulator to measure what the system flows at various manifold pressures. Again, it's all pretty outdated technology, but still around...
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