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Folks Of Interest Henry Ford : American Experience on PBS

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by slddnmatt, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    I think the sad part about his relationship with his Son Edsel was that he wanted Edsel to be an exact copy of himself. So many Fathers fall into the trap of wanting their kids to think and act the same way they do, and they fail to understand that every child is unique and deserves to live his own life.

    But that seemed to be Henry's major flaw, he thought EVERYONE should think and live their lives exactly as he did. His control over his employees verged on cruelty IMO, and would never fly these days. Henry was lucky he lived back when he did and that he had so much money he could get away with those kinds of acts.

    Obviously a brilliant man, but not without some real issues inside his head.

    Don
     
  2. Rich Wright
    Joined: Jan 9, 2008
    Posts: 3,922

    Rich Wright

    I thought it was a great documentary...both good and bad are part of life for pretty much everyone on some level or another and Henry Ford was no exception. He was a hard man, unforgiving of others...a man who did not suffer fools lightly. Traits that can attributed to pretty much any of the titans of business and industry that helped create the modern America that was born during the late 19th and early 20th century. It helps to keep in mind the times within which his life and accomplishments occurred.
    In spite of his faults he was a great man.

    One thing he seems to have said to others on a routine basis struck a chord... I grew up hearing this same phrase in one version or another.

    "Don't tell me what you know. Show me what you do"..

    In other words, don't Talk the Talk unless you can Walk the Walk.

    It's the first lesson taught to me when learning my trade 50 years ago and it's the mantra I live by today. I have no patience for Wannabes and, apparently, neither did Ford:):)
     
  3. now that right there is hilarious. i have not seen the show nor do i want to. there are things about "crazy henry" that most people just don't want to know. henry hated rich people (although his dad and ucles did very well themselves.) he was a socialist at the very least and very likley a communist. yep. after Ford motor company was well on its feet he spent months at a time in russia with its leaders discussing bringing ford cars to russia. he was very impressed with them and their government. he thought that capitolist were the scum of the earth. he was very very anti-semetic and even bought a news paper that was distributed through the ford agencys to spread his anti-jewish ideas.

    he refused to list Ford Motor Company on the stock market. he couldn't stand the thought of "the jew capitolist" owning any part of his company.

    During the depression, lots of banks came to him for help. henry thought that the depression was "good" for people. it would make them honest and appriciate what they had. when asked about people going hungry, he said "let them eat vegitibles" . he said people should learn to rely on themselves and learn how to grow gardens. he even let people grow garden spots on some land at his home (fairlane, named after his grandparents home town in ireland).

    he had a group of enforcers at the rouge plant called "the service department". it started as a place where employees could go for help and to check on the employees well being. as the years went on it turned into a group of the thugs that did what ever henry told them to. like fire people, beat up trouble makers and union supporters. they would hang at local bars and watch for ford workers drinking or smoking. they would report that to henry or just fire them on the spot. henry hated tobacco of any kind and would not allow it around him or in his plants.

    edison was his idol. he worked at edison electric in detriot for many years while he was working on the quadra-cycle in a wood shed at home. later when ford motor company got big, he became best friends with edison. they spent alot of time together. when henry would start talking about something crazy edison was the only one that could tell him like it was and he would listen. when edison died, his check system was gone. things got bad after that.
     
  4. vonpahrkur
    Joined: Apr 21, 2005
    Posts: 912

    vonpahrkur
    Member

    Enjoyed the program on PBS. It showed the good and the bad. While Ford was wise to acquire his own stockpiles of resources, I think he was foolish to not realize that Edsel was probably one of his greatest resources and had he realized that and let him run with the ball at the right time instead of lording over him and trying to micromanage his life, the story would most likely have been an even greater one possibly ending with Edsel being at his father's funeral and then taking the company to an even higher level rather than the other way around. As far as the tone of the program, those who write the words for programs carefully choose their words and themes to focus on just as journalists use charged language to evoke an emotional response one way or another. It could be argued that for a person to not realize this... they might be considered "ignorant". ;)
     
  5. Thunderroad hated it
    I loved it
    You didn't see it, but you're glad.
    Three people, two qualified opinions.
    A great advantage is the ability to arrive at a conclusion without the benefits of facts.
     
  6. gas pumper
    Joined: Aug 13, 2007
    Posts: 2,952

    gas pumper
    Member

  7. Jonnie King
    Joined: Aug 12, 2007
    Posts: 2,077

    Jonnie King
    Member
    from St. Louis

    They used to have some of the camper trailers at the Henry Ford Museum. Been awhile since I was there, but when I lived in Detroit I'd go there every couple of months.

    BOTH Greenfield Village, and, the Henry Ford Museum are musts if you get to that area ! A real microcosm of History and all preserved in one place.

    Jonnie www.legends.thewwbc.net
     
  8. dclickster
    Joined: Nov 7, 2005
    Posts: 86

    dclickster
    Member

    It was sad that his relationship with Edsel was so bad, but if you stop & think, it almost had to be that way or neither man would have accomplished their destiny. Henry a true pioneer,
    Edsel was his son & heir apparent & couldn't conform to the same mind set. Conflict naturally resulted. In the end the old man had remorse, & that was very sad.
     
  9. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    One contradiction in Henry's life was that he brought about such a huge change in people's lives though his developments, but he hated change so very much. The construction of that little town with all the buildings from his early days is a perfect example. He was trying to go back in time to a place he felt happier and more comfortable.

    I wonder what the future of Ford Motor Company would have been if it hadn't been for Edsel's continuing urging to modernize the cars or his Wife's threats to leave him if he didn't listen. If Henry had his way the model T he loved so dearly might have continued being built until no one wanted it any more. He seemed stuck in time and fought change tooth and nail.

    Don
     
  10. big creep
    Joined: Feb 5, 2008
    Posts: 2,945

    big creep
    Member

    i loved it, but i was switching back a forth between that and the men that built America.
     
  11. Fedcospeed
    Joined: Aug 17, 2008
    Posts: 2,011

    Fedcospeed
    Member

    I dont know what to think now.I heard bits and pieces of Mr Ford and his mind set.I couldnt turn the channel,it was so interesting to hear the history I never heard before.It has tarnished my view of Mr Ford.Kind of reminds me of Howard Hughes.Didnt want to believe stories Ive heard about him and now know they were true.Too bad.I dont know, I kind of wish I didnt watch it now.
     
  12. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    Henry seem like one of those people who would have done exactly as you said. As I posted yesterday, his company outgrew him and the world passed him by. He would have blamed the customer for not buying his cars, not himself for failing to advance and evolve. Rather than looking at himself, he dismissed what his competitors were doing as unnecessary. On the program there was a reference to him saying something about people being misled by advertising rather than being satisfied with what he was offering. Henry must have eventually realize that a '40 Ford was a better car than the Model T.

    I did some work for a car company who had Henry's attitude. Their cars once sold very well but that had changed. Their current offerings didn't compare well with the competition. Their marketing people felt they were making what people should buy and blamed their customers for not doing so. That was about 15 years ago. They never did regain the market share they once had there is no indication they ever will.

    When Henry Ford II retired in the early '80s he admitted he hadn't taken the Japanese competition seriously enough. Like his grandfather, he thought what the company was doing was good enough. One or two major miscalculations in the car business can ruin the company, so while it was wrong, his reluctance to change was at least understandable. Although he suffered, no repercussions for acknowledging his error, I did respect him for admitting it.
     
  13. Ford worked with a guy named Henry Leland. Leland was an acomplished machist and mechanic that Ford respected. Leland worked on both race cars with Ford. During the second of Fords car companys the "millionares" ,as Ford refered to them, hired Leland to keep an eye on Ford because he refused to do what they wanted him to. Ford was spending a lot of money with no results.

    Ford couldn't stand having a babysitter so he quit. Leland took over the failed company and renamed it Cadillac, later selling it to GM. Ford got tired of Edsel's constant droning about updating the Model T line to compete with GM and in 1922 bought Lincoln for Edsel to "play with". He wouldn't let Edsel have any access to the Model T's assembly lines or cheaper parts. So it wasn't very successful, Henry's plan all along. He bought the Lincoln line from Henry Leland.

    In the late 30's, Edsel bought the rights to the Zephyr from the Briggs body company. He intended for the Zephyr to be a mid priced line with lots of style, to compete with GM's olds and Buick lines. Same thing happed as with the Lincoln so it was melted into the Lincoln line in the high priced field.

    Edsel's Continental was almost an accident. He wanted a personal "sports car" to drive and had his designers build one. Right after it was done, he drove it to florida on vacation. He had only intended to build three. One for him, Henry II, and his second oldest Benson. By the time he got back from florida, they had 200 orders from people who had seen it. They ended up building about 2500 of them.
     
  14. Henry Ford was a complex person thats almost impossible to understand at times. He wanted Edsel to succeded, but, constantly held him back to show everyone who was really in charge. I think it was couzens who said "there's a genious in that man, but, the parts are strewn about".

    Henry Ford played a HUGE roll in making the automobile accessible to everyone. Before the Model T. Cars where fancy playthings for the rich, like the rockefellers (who Henry despised). I think if Henry would have gotten out of Edsels way, Ford Motor Company would be even bigger than it is now. They had almost the entire market with the Model T and Henry let it slip away with his stubborness.

    I wonder, If Edsel where to have been calling to shots later, how many car companys that we are very used to would have closed. not being able to compete with Ford. In the teens Ford had a 55 percent market share. By 1937 GM had 45 percent, Chrysler had 27 percent and Ford had 22 percent. Edsel saw it all coming and tried to fix it well before the snow ball got rolling.
     
  15. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    At one time Ford was selling more cars than all the other car companies in the world combined. I have always wondered the same thing as you. Who knows where they would be today if that original momentum had been maintained. On the other hand, sucess in the car business requires doing a lot of things right most of the time just to stay in the fight, let alone stay at the top, and no one has a crystal ball.
     
  16. Deuce Daddy Don
    Joined: Apr 27, 2008
    Posts: 4,953

    Deuce Daddy Don
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Here's 3 excellent books for resource, all about Henry.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Deuce Daddy Don
    Joined: Apr 27, 2008
    Posts: 4,953

    Deuce Daddy Don
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Sorry---I'll turn it around!
     

    Attached Files:

  18. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 2,930

    jimdillon
    Member

    I found it very interesting the statements that Ford and Leland worked together and do not doubt that such may have been written but it certainly does not coincide with the research that I have done to date. If such is the case I would love to read any such accounts, as there are Ford historians than know much more than I. I feel the HAMB can be a great resource if we try to keep it just that. If there is proof that Ford and Leland worked together than so be it but thought I would throw out my .02 in an attempt to make the record correct-whatever that is.

    Part of the reason that I found the PBS show interesting is that it made an admirable attempt to clarify history. The history of Ford had been clouded so to speak with much misinformation. The same is true of Cadillac and Henry Leland etc. To this day I read even GM accounts of Cadillac history and am somewhat surprised that some historian in the company has not tried to straighten out some of the errors. One of the reasons may be that Henry Leland’s son, Wilfred who was present and worked side by side with his father during the formation of Cadillac, wrote a manuscript which later became a book called “Master of Precision, Henry M. Leland”. Wilfred Leland wrote the manuscript when he was in his 80s much from memory and so there may be some gray areas, in my opinion. As I alluded to in my earlier post, I wrote an article on the formation of Cadillac entitled “Cadillac, The Early Cars and the Men Behind Them.” In researching Cadillac I looked through not only Wilfred Leland’s original manuscript (and the footnotes) but also all 17 (or 19 whatever the #, it has been a few years) boxes that make up the Leland Archives in the Detroit Library. Mrs Wilfred Leland donated all of the paperwork and auto related material to the Detroit Library as the Leland Archives. The vast majority of it was not helpful to me in research but would be interesting to many, I suppose. I also researched Cadillac and William Murphy.

    Based on my research, I have not found that Henry Ford and Henry Leland ever worked together or knew each other that well (in the 1901-1903 period at least). I seem to remember that Ford may have run into Leland at a trade show when Leland was displaying his one cylinder engine, but that is something I would have to confirm in my notes.

    This whole saga has always interested me and both of my grandfathers had some association with Ford. My paternal grandfather was an Irish immigrant who came over by himself when he was a teenager in 1913. There was some discrimination against hiring the Irish and my grandfather worked at a number of jobs before landing a job at Ford’s Highland Park Plant. I talked to him about the conditions there and they were anything but ideal but my grandfather always appreciated his employment at Ford. He went on to work at the Rouge complex and retired around 1951, regrettably after two strokes. My maternal grandfather worked at Chalmers and Packard before forming his own trucking company and one of his jobs was laying the road beds (for the many miles of railroad) at the Ford Rouge. My maternal grandfather knew Ford and also had a run in with Bennett over the payment for the road bed project (a topic written about by the Ford biographer David Lewis, in an article David did on my grandfather). My grandfather was good friends with Oliver Barthel (who I also visited with on two occasions as a kid when I was too young to appreciate who he was) and I was able to secure a copy of Barthel’s autobiography. The autobiography is interesting but some may point out is self serving so it may have to be taken with a grain of salt.

    The Ford Motor Company formed in 1903 was of course a tremendous success. The two earlier attempts by Ford were not successful. The Detroit Automobile Company was founded in August of 1899 and was dissolved in January of 1901 (hopefully the dates are correct as I have not looked through my files). The next company formed was the Henry Ford Company which was formed late in 1901, November, I believe. There was a large gap between the dissolution of the first company and the formation of the second. During this period is when the racecar, Sweepstakes was built. When you see pictures of Ford driving Sweepstakes some of the pictures show Oliver Barthel as his passenger. In Barthel’s autobiography he states that Ford called on him in May of 1901 to hire him to build this racecar. Barthel claims he designed and supervised the construction in its entirety from the ground up. This car was finished with the blessing of William Murphy, who was the real money behind these ventures, in my opinion. The other investors may have been millionaires but Murphy in today’s dollars would probably be a billionaire. Sweepstakes was finished in the fall and the famous race against Winton took place in October of 1901.

    Based on this success, the Henry Ford Company was formed in November of 1901 and the Sweepstakes racer was placed prominently on the letterhead. Henry Ford of course was front and center as the man in charge of getting a car ready for market. There were four investors although I believe William Murphy was really in charge. It did not take long to discover that Ford was making no real progress on a car for market and so Murphy turned to Barthel and hired him to assist Ford. Barthel started on design of sample cars and also was working on design of a larger racecar for Ford (to become the 999) but Murphy was adamant that they were to work on cars for market. Murphy threatened to fire Barthel if he continued work on the racecar design (so Barthel continued only on his spare time). Murphy discovered Ford was spending working hours on the larger racer and in March of 1902 Henry Ford left with $800 or $900. Whether he was fired or left of his own accord is up for debate. Barthel was put in charge but left shortly after to build a car of his own with some other investors. Murphy then hired Patrick Hussey to head up getting cars ready for market and that did not work as so well either. Murphy then went to see Henry Leland to help get the company back on track and they agreed to use Leland’s one cylinder engine and Leland would work with Alanson Brush to get the cars ready for market. With Leland’s engine things looked promising but Leland did not enter the picture at the Henry Ford Company until around 5 or 6 months after Ford’s departure. If they met anytime sooner than that as business associates it is not something I found in my research.

    In August of 1902, Murphy called for a meeting of the board of directors and the name was changed from the Henry Ford Company to the Cadillac Automobile Company. Henry Leland was given stock in the company but he was not put in charge, as he still had his own company, Leland and Faulconer Manufacturing Company, producing the Cadillac engines but also gear cutting and other fine castings and machine work. To keep from getting too wordy, in 1904 Leland wanted more control and Murphy’s father died in 1905 and Murphy now had to run the many family businesses on his own so he was happy to turn the controls in a sense over to Leland. Henry Leland of course became the head man in charge in short order starting in 1905.

    As to the whole topic of market share that is up for debate but I do believe if Henry had listened to Edsel he could have definitely helped their market share. Not trying to step on any toes just giving my version for whatever it is worth. The Ford history has been mired for years in a bit of misinformation and do not want it to get worse if we can avoid it. Better get some work done in the shop-Jim
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