HEMI Tech: Camshafts.. new? Regrind? solid or Hydraulic?

Nielson cams is going to be doing new cams for the Desoto hemis. They are doing ones for the old Dodge hemis now. Bill

 

Just re-read through this thread and I need to ask, since I am now in this situation, what is the difference between the early 331's and the 354 cams? And why would one need and or want to run a later 354 cam in a 331? Also if one chooses to run a 354 cam in a 331 then what is needed to do this?

Thanks for the help and info!

 

a blokes got a hemi, but he can't be invisible, somebody seems to recognise him

 

The 331 cam is a long snout cam with a retaining nut. The 354 is a modern style snout. If you use a spacer between the cam & cam gear you can run a 318/340 timing set on the 354 cam. The spacer keeps the gear from locking to the block when tightened down.

 

Most folks use a 354 cam since new cores are available.

The spacer george refers to is a special part with a bevel on the ID to cover the filet on the first cam journal. It is required in some fashion. You will re-use your 331 cam retainer plate. Also, keep in mind that if you want to use a mech fuel pump then you must find a way to drive the eccentric as the LA cam sprocket completely covers the woodruff key which normally extends and acts as a drive tang. With the eccentric in place then a stock bolt and cup washer can be used, without the eccentric the cup washer does not hold against the sprocket.

Gary

.

 

Enough was sticking out to hold mine in place.

 

Isn't that pin just pressed in?? If it is then couldn't you have a longer pin milled up and pressed in and therefore have enough length on the pin to engage the eccentric cam to drive the fuel pump?

 

No 'pin' on a 354 cam, just the woodruff key.

Hey george, was/is your cam oem or aftermarket ?

On every cam I have on the shelf, new and old, the key sits shallow...


Gary

 

all i know...$$$$$

 

Sorry my mistake...still learning...

Anyway even if it is a woodruff key couldn't a custom key be made to extend past the outside of the timing gear face so that the eccentric cam would have something to fasten onto?

Or would this put too much stress on the key and you would have the potential of breaking the key and loosing your timing chain?

 

Howard's cam

 

Ok Since I'm a trucker and have lots of time on my hands for "thinking" I was pondering the whole roller lifters for my 331.

I have a used set of individual roller lifters and keepers (correct term for holding the rollers rockers lined up with the cam?) These are from a late 80's early 90's 360 LA motor from a dodge ram truck.





So I popped them into the lifter bores on my 331 and they fit perfectly!! Then I tried the keepers...not a bad fit..not sure if they are supposed to be tight but they have a little bit of play from side to side. I rotated the engine through a few cycles and they seem to work properly and not bind up.





Although in the original set-up there is a girdle? that bolts to the lifter valley to hold the keepers down and in place.



The stock girdle is damn close but obviously the 331 doesn't have provisions for this to bolt down. Do you think there is enough material in the bosses over the cam to tap and put in studs? I have another idea for holding the keepers down, will draw it out and see what you think.

So now I'm wondering if this has been done before, or at least attempted and problems have been found or it was not feasable for some reason?

Thoughts?

 

Well, from what I can see...depending on what's under the three holes in the "spyder"...there is probably enough meat to drill/tap for the three retaining bolts, even if the retaining bolts were cut to clear whatever is under there (and it LOOKS like the bolts would clear the lobes). Since the "spyder" is stamped sheet metal, I really doubt that you would need a WHOLE lot of bolt to hold it down...especially if you used Loc-tite on them. Yes, that looks entirely feasible...and a GREAT idea which might have solved the WAY expensive roller lifter situation for the Chrysler block guys. However, the DeSoto blocks are an inch or so shorter, and although the roller sets would fit, a different (modified?) "spyder" would need to be made. BTW, are the retainers locked onto the 2 roller set, or do they slip off?...

 

Looking at your photo of the spyder again, even if it DIDN'T fit the Desoto lifter bore lay out, it looks like making three cuts/re-welds on it would position it in the propper location. That's a REALLY easy thing to do... Did you get this whole set up out of a slvage engine? The reason I ask is because every time I see the lifters for sale, the don't come with the links...

 

I too thought that 3 maybe 4 cuts and rewelds would position that spyder in the right position. Those keepers/collars come off and are an individual piece.



And yes these pieces are from a parts truck I bought, so they should be available from a wrecking yard near you...

 

345 Desoto...Since the stock 273-360 roller lifter you got work in the Desoto blocks then these would also work, but in the long run would it really be any cheaper or easier?? Since with this set-up you would have to tap and thread for studs to hold the spyder in place as well as cut and reweld the spyder. At least with the roller lifters like you bought there is no need for a spyder plate is there??

 

There's always more than one way to skin a cat. I'm looking at cost versus sweat equity. The linked LA roller lifters are expensive, whereas the 318 set-up that you came up with is cheaper to buy, but a slight bit more work is involved...which doesn't appear to be a lot. You pays yer money, and you takes yer choice...

 

If you put the late rollers next to an original lifter, how do the oil slots line up? I've heard the complication with this swap is you have to relocate the oil hole to get continuous oil flow.

Which would probably involve modified bushings inserted into the bores. But if you're like me and are working with a rusty block and considering bushings anyway........

 

Ahh and there we go...never thought of that...will have to research the oiling systems....Thanks for the heads up on that one Shifty!!!

Unfortunetly all my lifters were missing from my motor...why... (shrug)...since it came with everything else but those??? So I can not do a side by side comparision.

 

good work, i bought a 360 magnum and just havent had time to pull it apart, i wanted to try them in my 276, i had the idea of attaching the spider to the bottom on the lifter valley cover, i was thinking i'd make a nice aluminum cover and make some standoffs comeing down from the bottom, attach the spider to it.maybe? lol

 

Hey 345, one more thing.

Im not sure if using USED the LA hyd roller lifters is ok with a HOT HYD roller stick. Im looking at it this way :

i. These old LA lifters are used - done a lot of work and can be worn.
ii. They are engineered for use with stock profile OEM cams...
iii. The stock OEM roller cams are mild - Im looking to use a hot cam with way more lift
and duration at 0.050 and
iv. The hot cam will need way stiffer springs than stock OEM, so more load on the seat
nose.

Would the stock used OEM lifters cut it in a perf application?

Rat

 

here a pic of the retro lifter next to the magnum lifter, i guess the consern in the location of the oil grove. thanks for the pic 345 desoto

 

I would bet that since the LA aftermarket rollers are "Retro" lifters, that the oil grooves would be where they need to be...since the flat tappet lifters for the LA engines are a drop in replacement in the flat tappet Desoto engines...

 

This is probably crazy, but could you lathe-turn the OE mopar roller to drop the oil slot? Or would the top of the oil slot then be a problem with poking out of the bore?

If they're anything like GM rollers, you can run a lot of aftermarket cam before the lifter is an issue. Honestly, the only real reason to go to a performance roller is lighter weight. The factory ones are chunky and don't like going past about 6500. And some aftermarket rollers are overpriced garbage, making the stockers look very desireable for most street apps.

 

Hmmmm... well there's an interesting addition to the conversation! Good stuff on the roller lifters. I will be watching to see what comes of this! Thanks for sharing and experimenting!

 

People run the 361/413 lifters sucsessfully & the oil slots arn't exactly the same, & as you said, the LA lifters will apparently work. All high decks use the same lifters & Doc Fromader used LA rollers on the 315 build. So they should be fine.

 

GEORGE - That's where I got the idea to use the LA Rollers in the DeSoto engine...Doc Fromander...

 

We discussed it a ways back, probably in this thread.

 

In another discussion in the Hemi Tech, I told how I'm going to need to cut a slot between the pairs of lifter bore machining access holes, to get the rollers to drop into the bores. I've got a low deck Desoto, and there isn't enough room over the lifter bores, and between the bottom of the lip on the deck to get them in. The area that needs to be slotted isn't structurally critical...actually, all it does more or less is provide a place to fasten the valley cover too...

 

desoto, have you tried droping in a magnum roller lifter in your low deck desoto? they look a little shorter then the retro lifters