HEMI Tech: Camshafts.. new? Regrind? solid or Hydraulic?

One thing you cannot do is run a 331/354 cam in a 392, or vice-versa. The raised deck on the 392 changes the angle of the valve train relationship with the cam. They will run, but for crap. DAMHIK.......

 

I had Chris Neilson supply my cam. lifters and pushrods. He basically custom grinds a cam for your car. Taking into account, tire size, gear ratio, converter,cubic inches, induction and compression ratio.

 

If you have a '51 through '55 Chrysler engine, use a '56 camshaft. It's only the snout that's different so a '56 camshaft will work and you can use the A-block timing sprockets and chain.

BTW......

When you're pulling that crudded up old camshaft out, DON'T LOSE THE CAM SPROCKET SPACER. It'll be stuck to the camshaft and actually look like it's part of the cam but will get lost in the hot tank/parts washer if you're not careful.

 

FWIW, I've been running a roller cam in my hemi for 43 years now. I run the valves whenever I thrash on the engine. The annual one-day trip from the Boston area to Louisville isn't enough to get me to adjust the push-rods UNLESS I've been pushing it through heavy traffic (downshifting, planting my foot in it to get around "situations") or if it's been a while since I've adjusted them prior to leaving.

I DO try and adjust the valves once I get back home, though if I haven;t already done so upon arrival in Louisville.

I adjust the valves three or four times a season. If I hear one starting to get loud, I adjust them as soon as I get where I'm going and the engine is still at running temperature.


This is a '53 block with a Crower "Imperial" roller cam I purchased back in '64. It's got roller tappets AND roller journals. The cam was for a '56 and I used the stock Chrysler timing sprockets (this was WAY before the 340 came out with the roller timing chain). I lost 2 lobes on the cam back in the early ninetes and Crower welded the cam back up, regrond it and I slapped it back in....and dropped the spring pressures down from 170/410 to 100/330. The valves float at 4,500 rpm now but I've stopped eating up rockers, pushrods and lifters. Since I cruise at 3,000to 3,200 on the highway and the rev limiter's set for 4,500, I don't notice the float.

 

One can purchase reground Desoto hemi cams. I bought mine from Egge. Last time I checked it's nearly impossible to get a "hot" desoto hemi cam new. I talked to one fellow that had a special billet roller cam made and it cost him $1000 approx. This is one minor area where is sucks to have a desoto.

 

That series is a great read. I go over it from time to time since I'm partial to the dodge hemi.

 

I am running an Isky cam in the 331 in my coupe. It's a big solid grind, and I have been very happy with it so far. The only problem I had was with the valve springs Isky recommended and sold me with the cam...the spring rate was way too stiff with my stock valves. I remedied that with a set of Schneider springs, whose products I can also recommend. If you deal with Isky, try to talk to Ron Iskenderian...he seems pretty knowledgable about the Hemi grinds.

I decided to give Chet Herbert a shot for the blown 392 I'm piecing together. I bought a huge billet solid roller from them, as well as a set of lifters for same. The quality looks really nice, and I expect that the cam should be a ground shaker with the amount of duration and the lobe center it's ground on. Don Johansen (great guy by the way!) ground the cam and he said it's the same cam he has been grinding for the cacklefest cars.

Since my Herbert roller is a billet, does anyone know of a source for a bronze gear to go on the intermediate shaft?

 

Great to see more input added to this! Great topic!

BTTT for master Bass. Anyone have some input for him? Would be good to know.

 

The best price I have found on bronze gears is CAT Power Engine Parts Balwinpark, Ca. They sell one for a small block mopar - Part Number DG-318 - it's virtually identical to the 392 gear.

 

somthing I ran into and thought I would let you all know and watch out for. The new valve guides and and valves seals have an issue with cams above .450 lift. The springs dont bind but the problem is the retainer comes down far enough to hit the valve seal. I found this out after I assembled my heads and ended up taking another .188 of the top of the guides for clearance. They should be good to at least .525 lift.

 

OH! That's a good tip right there!! Something to look out for! Thanks for adding that!

 

Here's some info provided by HAMBer "Imperial"... Just moved it from a different location. Good info!

This I found on thehemi.com
Did anyone here did this swap?

Kenneth has discovered that by honing the lifter bores (assuming one needs or wants to) approximately 0.017 inches you can now use 1986 Oldsmobile roller lifters. Although this will require the alignment bars to be fabricated, or finding something that will fit. Kenneth is a machinist by trade, so was able to fabricate his own, and is also fabricating his own spring-style retaining device(s). These rollder lifters are considerably cheaper (approx $9 each) as compared to name brand aftermarket parts.

 

If I remember right those are for the 3.8 V6. Doc Fromader used 318 roller lifters with shortened connector bars on his 315 build. Seems to indicate this would work on the other hemis also.

 

I hope nobody is getting the impression you san simply do some machine work on the lifter bores and run roller tappets on your hydraulic cam. The lobe profile is different for a roller cam and putting roller tapets on a non-roller cam won't work. ....at least not the way the cam was designed to work. You might get it to actually fire up but valve timing will be way off.

 

...agree with Desoto...If you want a roller cam for an early Hemi you have very limited options. Occasionally, there are cast core still found at the swap meets for the 354 and 392 but don't waste your time looking for Dodge or DeSoto pieces. You can have a billet cam made by any of the big cam mfg's but then you have to deal with other issues such as bronze gears. Roller cam packages should also use a rev kit which is not a shelf item for any cam company. We regrind alot of flat tappet cams and they work very well in all street applications without any special parts other than adjustable pushrods/rockers.

 

Okay, I realize that this thread is WAY old, but my problem isn't...so I'm going to ask and hope somebody sees it and can help. I'm going to use a Roller Cam in my 291 DeSoto, and I'd simply like to know how to, if at all possible, adapt ANY kind of hydraulic rollers to this DeSoto Hemi...

 

All these threads are meant to be bumped up! Never a thread too old... at least for Hemi Tech anyway...

And your question... a GOOD ONE! Wish I could answer it! I think it was mentioned somewhere about doing this with a Chrysler block. If the oiling is the same and dimensionally the cast is the same around your lifter bores, I don't see why you couldn't do it using the same technique, which I believe was a standard off the shelf roller lifter for some make of engine (sorry I can't remember) and then sligtly oversiving your lifter bores.

Anyone else want to take a stab at this and shake my memory on which lifter those were?

EDIT: Here you go... maybe this will help...

 

"If I remember right those are for the 3.8 V6. Doc Fromader used 318 roller lifters with shortened connector bars on his 315 build. Seems to indicate this would work on the other hemis also."...

Where specifically can I find where this info was Posted? I can't find "Doc Fromader," or "315 build" ?...

 

www.webrodder.com is the 315 build. Should be simular for your DeSoto.

 

GOT IT!!! Rather than spend upwards of $600 for the 392 rollers, then having to modify the link bar, the "commonly available" LA (318-360) rollers will do the trick! Slight modification to the link bars, custom length push rods, and I'm in business. Thanks LOADS, guys... By the way, the hydraulic roller is for a DeSoto 291, EDIS8 ignition, Megasquirt ECM, single turbo Street engine... Thanks, again...

 

roller cams are the way to go, with these new oils without the zinc content, a hemi is to expensive to rebuild when parts turn to crap, especially when the lubricants let you down, i have an isky roller for my blown 354, for the street, not a lot of lift, but good duration 0.502" at valve 232*duration 111* lobe separation, hilborn injection, vertex, in my 40 ford pickup.

 

I have searched the entire western Hemisphere for a NEW (NOT reground!) cam core for the DeSoto Hemi engine, and there are NONE to be found...except for Chet Herbert. I spent weeks Googleing up everything I could think of, trying to find DeSoto cam blanks, and FINALLY scored a used DeSoto roller cam for my engine from Racer Brown. Later rediscovered Chet Herbert and talked to them. They have every Master they EVER produced..including one-off's, and can run off a brand new DeSoto cam on a NEW blank, in any grind they have a master for...

 

That's GREAT news for the DoSoto guys! Out of curiosity, what are they getting for those? Also, when you "every master", does that include Chrysler and Dodge cams as well?

OH! One more thing... PLEASE provide us some contact info. I'm sure there will be some people interested in your discovery! Thanks for sharing...

 

Man I'm very interested - I need a Desoto 330 cam right now. I had read on HotHeads that someone was going to be making new ones by the end of 2008, then their web board went down and all the posts were lost.

 

Those listings are for LA, B, RB and 426 Hemis - I didn't see mention of early Hemis.

 

This is the contact info for Chet Herbert. Donny Johanson is the man to talk too...
http://www.chetherbert.com/contact/contact.html
This is the email address for Racer Brown. Jim is the man to talk too... [email protected]

 

AWESOME! Thank you!

 

They (Chet Herbert) said that a NEW, not reground, cam from one of their masters (steel blank DeSoto roller) shouldn't be more than $300-$350. Yes, (Chrysler and Dodge Hemi's) they have EVERY master for EVERY cam they ever made. As an aside, I found out all the info on how to use Mopar 318 Hydraulic Roller Lifters in the DeSoto block, to go along with my Roller Cam. I've also added an email I sent, to THE most knowledgable person I know of, on my DeSoto Roller specs...

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:55 AM
Subject: 55 DeSoto Roller Cam
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Tony deFoster here. I have a 53-55 DeSoto roller cam that was probably made YEARS ago and is probably a "One-Off". One side of the lobe face has a more pronounced arc to it than the other side. I' don't mean a taper to the face like a flat tappet cam. Do solid roller cams have this type grind? What I'm trying to determine is if this is a sollid roller cam or a hydraulic roller cam. If it IS a solid roller cam, can I safely use hydraulic rollers ? It's for a Street engine.
[FONT=arial,helvetica]The specs I got with the cam are: 230 degrees @ .050, .25 lobe lift, 112 lobe separation. My rocker ratio is 1.5:1. I've sent along a few pictures to try to show my questions. The ONLY thing I find on the cam is the number 7, on the end of the cam. ANY information, especially if I could use a hydraulic roller lifter with this cam, would be very much appreciated. Thank you...[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Tony [/FONT]

[/FONT]<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0 1px solid" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100&#37;"><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e0e0e0" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=aolmailheader><TD vAlign=top width="10%">Subj:</TD><TD>Re: 55 DeSoto Roller Cam </TD></TR><TR class=aolmailheader><TD vAlign=top width="10%">Date:</TD><TD>8/20/2008 1:08:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time</TD></TR><TBODY id={F156769F-C593-4EE1-AF8B-A19E00108A3C}><TR class=aolmailheader><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="10%">From:</TD><TD>[email protected]</TD></TR><TR class=aolmailheader><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="10%">To:</TD><TD>[email protected]</TD></TR></TBODY><TBODY><TR class=aolmailheader><TD bgColor=#d0d0d0 colSpan=2>Sent from the Internet (Details)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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Tony,

It's a solid roller from the 1950s, probably an old Chet Herbert as he used numbers such as the '7' on many of his cams.
The pictures show it is probably an Endural core, which was a popular type of roller core material in the 1950s-1960s. The first roller core I bought for a BBC I was building was an Endural core from Howard's.
The ramps are extremely low, and slow, on those old grinds, so you COULD put a hydraulic roller lifter on one, but where would you find a hydraulic roller lifter that would work in a Desoto?
I once reground a 331 Chrysler roller that was in a Cunningham that had raced at LeMans in the early 1950s. The new grind was .3667" lobe lift, only 254 at .050, and the driver said it picked up the car tremendously. It was what I used as a daily driver cam.
Your cam could be reground by someone to a little higher lift, say .280"-.290", with modern lobe designs, even hydraulic roller patterns, and a SOLID Desoto roller tappet be used, with the valve lash set about .006".
Do not let anyone tell you to use .350" or higher lobe lift, as that much would go through whatever heat treat was still on the cam.
Keep the .050" duration around 225 to 235 at .050, and stay on the 112 LSA---That maximizes heat treat.
You have a rare piece there, and it may be unreplaceable. Treat it as such. Solid roller lifters, only, please, and tight valve lash.

UDHarold

As for the "new DeSoto cam blanks coming soon" thing, I've been hearing that for 5 years from a well known and respected Colorado cam guy...so far with no results...no disrespect intended. I hope this cam info will help someone else with one of these "red headed stepchild" DeSoto engines. It took WEEKS of "leg work" on the computer to dig it all up. They are a RELATIVELY inexpensive Hemi that, for lack of good cams, go unused. This, together with the newly available cast aluminum 4 bl, 2x4 bl, 6x2 bl and, blower intakes will turn the DeSoto Hemi into a LARGE can of whoop ass. As for me, my plans/build for an EDIS 8, electronic (Megasquirt) fuel injected, roller cammed 291 DeSoto Hemi are on track and right on schedule. I'm PLANNING on wrapping either a '32 three window, or a '27 roadster around it..

 

As a recap, any cam manufacturer can make a billet roller for any engine including the Early Hemi. However, because it is a billet, there will be certain requirements for lifters and distributor gear that a cast cam does not require. It is about as simple as calling your favorite cam company, mine happens to be Crower. Follow their requirements and live long.
As for Hemi roller lifters, use the late LA parts. The link bar will work as is in the DeSoto (similar bore spacing) but the Dodge bores are too tight and the Chrysler bore centres are too wide so new locating bars are needed.

 

To reiterate...NO "favorite" cam manufacturer will make a billet cam for a DeSoto engine...unless it has a Master OR you're willing to spend a LARGE amount of money on a "one-off", custom cam...trust me, I've tried....