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Help with Buffing my brand new clear coat.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Pugly, Jan 6, 2013.

  1. Pugly
    Joined: Jan 17, 2010
    Posts: 70

    Pugly
    Member

    I painted my own car..In Black....... Man if that isn't scary enough.

    When I was finished it shined really well but I had some runs and some orange peel. Everyone told me to color sand it so I did. I sanded (carefully) the runs out with 800, I went over the entire car with 1500 and then 2000. The paint when I finished sanding had a very dull shine to it. Almost like a flat paint.

    So I went to buffing........

    I used a wool pad the first pass with a product my paint store recommended. I believe EZ cut..

    I went over that with a foam pad, blue in color and the second finest one listed on the chart. I used Meguiars Mirror glaze 2.0 with the blue foam pad.... I run it just at the 2 setting on the buffer. I keep the pad flat as I can.

    I guess this is where I am lost. I can't get the shine back. No matter what I do, Even though I don't really know what I am doing, It's hazy looking. Even if I do get a decent shine to it, It goes back to hazy looking after awhile.

    I don't know if there is another step I should be doing, or if I am doing it all wrong.

    I tried using a lot of polish which actually makes it look worse. It seems that if I just use a little polish and keep going over and over the same area, if finally dies out and that's where I get my best shine, but still hazy.

    Any tips and advice you can give me?
     
  2. what type of paint/ brand?
     
  3. Sounds like the clear didn't harden properly.Are you sure you used the right amount of hardener?
     
  4. VoodooTwin
    Joined: Jul 13, 2011
    Posts: 3,455

    VoodooTwin
    Member
    from Noo Yawk

    Are you sure that you're buffing clear coat, and not base coat?
     

  5. Maybe you sanded through the clear coat?
     
  6. GaryC
    Joined: May 20, 2004
    Posts: 157

    GaryC
    Member

    My money is on rotary buffer haze. Especially if he's new to buffing. Pictures would definitely help.

    And all the machine glaze is doing is temporarily hiding / filling the haze that you effectively put on / left with the wool pad and rough cut compound. You really need to get the first buffing step right before moving onto finer compounds and pads.

    Granted, that's just my initial thoughts after reading what you wrote and not seeing any pictures. But I've seen that happen quite often, especially with guys new to paint & finish work.
     
  7. Pugly
    Joined: Jan 17, 2010
    Posts: 70

    Pugly
    Member

    PPG Paint, PPG 2002 Clear coat, Not buffing the paint, the pad is still clear. I put five coats of clear on it, just in case I needed to fix something.

    I am pretty sure I used the right amount of hardener, It actually was sprayed 3 weeks ago, with Christmas and vacation I am just now getting back to it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  8. Pugly
    Joined: Jan 17, 2010
    Posts: 70

    Pugly
    Member

    Okay, I took some pictures:
    Here is my car painted BEFORE I started "fixing" it.
    [​IMG]

    Here is a good representation of what it now looks like and the issue I am having

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It's shiny... But you can see the haze.
     
  9. Rusty Kustoms
    Joined: Feb 5, 2006
    Posts: 238

    Rusty Kustoms
    Member

    The paint is too hard, you waited too long to buff. Did you recently sand the car? Try the 3m 3000 grit with a soft intermediate pad for your da sander. Sand one panel at a time and then buff. Try a better compound, wizards or 3m is what I use, meguiers is garbage. Black is very hard to buff because it shows everything, by waiting so long to buff you are really going to spend some time on it. What buffer and what speed are you using? As already said you need to get each step perfect before moving on, right now you are just filling in what was missed on the previous step and with time it is. dying back.
     
  10. Pugly
    Joined: Jan 17, 2010
    Posts: 70

    Pugly
    Member

    I painted and cleared the car the same day.

    I sanded the car over the last three days. (hey I am slow) and finished the whole car with 2000 today.

    I don't mind spending more time. I think I have plenty of clear on it. I am going to get another new pad and some finer compound tomorrow. What kind of 3m do I need?

    Oh and I also have a variable speed buffer. all the stuff is new as I have never tried anything like this before. I have been running the buffer at 1.5 for the wool and right at two for the foam. It has a wheel with the number 1-6 on it. It's an ATD that,s 1000-3000 rpm.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  11. Rusty Kustoms
    Joined: Feb 5, 2006
    Posts: 238

    Rusty Kustoms
    Member

    It is clear in your pictures that you have swirls from the wool pad as well as 2000 grit scratches. Try the finer 3000 grit on the da, this should help tremendously. Wizards has a product you spray on and wipe off called inspection detailer, it is like the spray wax but is meant to clean off the compound before you move on to the next step. It allows you to see what might have been missed. Do not use a spray wax to do this as it will fill what you missed and die back later.

    Best of luck to you, with a little hard work you can do it.
     
  12. GaryC
    Joined: May 20, 2004
    Posts: 157

    GaryC
    Member

    Personally - I'd try to steer you away from using a wool pad, if you are new to buffing. Use a yellow ("rough cut") foam pad and something like 3M's perfect it 3000 rubbing compound. Then switch to a polishing pad and 3M's Perfect It Machine Polish then another pad and 3M's ultrafine swirl mark remover.

    Just my .02.

    And those pictures look like a combo of hologramming, haze and even some sanding scratches left from not getting them out in the compounding stage before moving up to a polishing stage, to remove the marks from compounding.
     
  13. Rusty Kustoms
    Joined: Feb 5, 2006
    Posts: 238

    Rusty Kustoms
    Member

    What brand buffer, what speed setting? 3m has a 3 step system that works great. You should have plenty of clear on there, I wouldn't worry about going through except on the edges. I think that there are a few things working against you here, black, 2000 grit, time since painted, and possibly to slow buffer speed. It is entirely possible to make it shine like a mirror, finer grit paper, better compound and a lot of hard work.
     
  14. Rusty Kustoms
    Joined: Feb 5, 2006
    Posts: 238

    Rusty Kustoms
    Member

    You are going to need that wool pad, the paint is too hard and the sand scratches are to coarse to for a foam pad to cut. Be careful with the wool pad though, work small areas at a time and keep moving.
     
  15. Pugly
    Joined: Jan 17, 2010
    Posts: 70

    Pugly
    Member

    ATD Buffer 1,000- 3000 rpm. has a wheel that has a 0-6. So far I think it seems to work best on about 1.5 on the wool pad and 2 on the foam pad.

    How fast should it be turning and how much compound should I use?


    and it still does have some sanding scratches in it.
    I will see if I can find 3m products around here and buy those, along with some new pads.


    Thanks for all the suggestions
     
  16. 1931modela
    Joined: Nov 4, 2011
    Posts: 262

    1931modela
    Member
    from montana

    wool pad is old school and not good anymore. use the foam pads witht he approproate cut compound. there are several different type of foam pads with different types of density thus the different cut. Last one I did I finished with a purple pad and fines it 3000. I know there is a finer pad that is black. You are a ways away from the final polish as you have some pretty nasty wool pad scratches. Be careful on the edges and even use masking tape on the edges to keep fron burning through. Ask your local paint rep. to take a look at it.
     
  17. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,939

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal

    Hey,

    For a wool pad, did you mean a cutting pad or a soft wool pad? First a cutting pad, then a polishing pad. Most guys have gone to the black foam pads for final polish & glaze, as the wool requires alitle more skill to pull up a deep shine. Too, I see no mention of a 1000 grit or 2500, you can broad jump sanding some of the lighter colours and pull up a shine with a final glaze , but on a black you've really gota do all of the steps to pull outa deep shine. Be sure to keep your pad super clean when cutting and polishing, and remove all of the cutting compound BEFORE you go with your final glaze/polish.

    " Humpty Dumpty was pushed "
     
  18. I use 3M Fast Cut and a white low lint wool pad at 1400 rpm. A squirt of compound about 4-5 inches long will do about a square foot. When the compound goes away, quit buffing or add some more! You can scratch one up staying in one place too long, plus heat it up too much.
    fwiw, everybody does it differently, so there's no one correct answer.:cool:
     
  19. Rusty Kustoms
    Joined: Feb 5, 2006
    Posts: 238

    Rusty Kustoms
    Member

    I wool pad everything, never any issues. You will need that wool pad as you missed that window of opportunity to buff, the paint is rock hard now and hard to buff. You are not turning the buffer fast enough just as I thought. Spin it at 3 or 4 with the wool pad, keep it moving and watch the edges. You are going to need a finer grit paper as well. If you can't use the 3m 3000 grit da paper do minimum of 2500 by hand. You need to do one panel at a time, by doing this it will open the clear back up and make it easier to buff.
     
  20. slammed
    Joined: Jun 10, 2004
    Posts: 8,152

    slammed
    Member

    Wash and dry surface. Use this3M Automotive (3M 6068) Perfect-It 3000 Ultrafina SE, 1 Quart (US) with a black foam pad. Light pressure. Work the surface with even overlaps. Slow as she goes. Wipe surface with fiber cloth to check work.
     
  21. Go to www.3mcollision.com for a step by step process to help ya out. There are all kinds of "how to" videos on there. As for wool being old school.... foam compounding pads can get ya in over your skis real quick due to the increased heat of a foam pad. I can use what ever I want and gues what I grab? a wool pad. The way to look at paint finishing is scratch refinement. You started with 800, than 1000, than 1500, than 3000. After that a wool pad and 6085 3M extra cut compound at 1400-1700 rpm. You will have "compound scratches" now to refine. In order to do that you need 6065 3M Perfect it machine polish and a grey foam pad to refine the compound scratch.. now if you painted your car white or silver you would be done.....but no you had to pick " come get it at sundown" black... a painters worst nightmare on a long hot summer day... I would hit it with 3M 6068 ultrafine machine polish with the Blue foam pad..there should be droplets left behind on the surface to wipe up.. keep your detailing clothes separate depending on what product your using..check the website and good luck.... if ya get over your skis pm me and Ill see if I can walk ya through it.
     
  22. Pugly
    Joined: Jan 17, 2010
    Posts: 70

    Pugly
    Member

    Well Thanks for ALL the tips. I also stopped by Tasco this morning, a different place than I bought my paint and asked for help. The results were devastating..lol.

    The guys best suggestion was to start over with the clear coat. I painted and cleared my car without a heated spray booth, and he was concerned that the haze may be due to humidity in between the layers of clear.

    He sold me come 3M Machine cut and a new pad that goes with it. Told me to try it on a spot and if I couldn't get it the way I wanted,.. sand with 2000 and try again... if it still was hazy.. I should really just reshoot the clear. .

    He did have the 3mM three step process that Y'all were taking about but said it would be around $350.00, was more than willing to sell it to me, but was worried that if I bought it.. it still may be a humidity issue and I would have spent $350 i didn't need to.
     
  23. second_floor_loft
    Joined: Jul 23, 2008
    Posts: 93

    second_floor_loft
    Member

    Pugly:
    I'm not buying the humidity theory. You said the car looked really good (minus a few runs and some orange peel) before you started sanding, right? No haze? Didn't look like it in the pics posted. I'm in the group that thinks what you are seeing is micro fine scratches that haven't buffed out yet. I've painted in unheated garages in winter, and years ago under an open carport in Florida (humidity?) and not had a problem with that (water puking out of the air line notwithstanding).... Find a place where you can experiment without screwing up the whole job if you have to touch it up, like a rocker panel or something, jack the car up where you can see what you're doing (natural light is best) and buff is as has been described and see if you can bring it back. If you go through it you touch up a rocker panel...no big deal.

    My 2 cents
    Paul
     
  24. rampant150
    Joined: Dec 30, 2010
    Posts: 31

    rampant150
    Member

    Yeah it looks to me that you just moved on from one step to the next too fast. You need to use your course grit compound to remove all of the sanding scratches first. Then you can move on to your medium and fine polishes to remove the machine marks.
     

  25. I agree with this. i think what your seeing is sanding marks because you started with too fine of polish and pad. if i where doing it, i'd use some Wizards turbo cut or 3m perfect it and a yellow foam pad. then, a black fine pad and some 3m finnish glaze for dark colors.

    don't get in a hurry, it'll turn out fine.
     
  26. dubie
    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 698

    dubie
    Member

    I find it's best to stick with a system. If you start with 3M, you should finish with 3M. I personally use a 3 stage Presta product. You need to insure you don't under work your cutting process. All you're going to do is cause more work for yourself. In my opinion, that fog you're seeing is because you didn't heat up the clear enough with using the wool pad and cutting creme. This is the most important step is getting the scratches in that clear coat to melt back together and create a smooth finish again. That 800 grit will cut deep into that fresh clear, even after feathering it out, it can cause some significant scratching. I always start with a wool pad and cutting creme, then move onto the 1500 polish with a foam pad and then the swirl remover with a foam pad. It turns out a better than showroom shine everytime
     
  27. busajack
    Joined: Jun 16, 2012
    Posts: 67

    busajack
    Member
    from wy

    Much much more skill, talent, and experence needed for cut and polishing than painting.

    Black eh. Did five black jobs and found out that painting can be fun with light colors.
     
  28. TR Waters
    Joined: Nov 18, 2006
    Posts: 1,439

    TR Waters
    Member
    from Vermont
    1. Early Hemi Tech

    You sanded it smooth with 2000, then roughed it back up with the wool pad and old school compound. When sanded correctly, there is NO need for a coarse compund to "remove the sand scratches."
     
  29. jaco
    Joined: Oct 31, 2006
    Posts: 274

    jaco
    Member

    Also you may look at how much compound you are using at a time. Kind of sounds like you have saturated your wool pad. I like to to have two pads for each step so one can be drying out. Take your time and use the compound until it is worked in. You can do this just take your time, work in the compound untill it is gone and keep a clean pad. Are you keeping the pad clean by cleaning it with a paint stick?
    Good luck. Let us know how it comes out.
     
  30. henryj429
    Joined: Jan 18, 2007
    Posts: 1,058

    henryj429
    Member

    In general, some pretty good advice here.

    Most clears can be cut and buffed about 2 days after application and ANY time thereafter. If you wait more than 2 weeks, the amount of work at least doubles, but the result can be the same.

    I use black wool pads for cutting. I really like the Presta line of compounds for doing black paint. I agree with the previous comments -you should have a pretty decent shine after the compounding stage. The polish and glaze won't remove the haze from incomplete compounding.

    Make sure you work the compound until it is fully broken down - so that the residue left on the paint has a waxy texture. There should be no gritty feeeling at all. If you use too much compound, you will always be feeding in fresh grit and you won't get a shine.
     

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