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Help with brakes on new T Bucket build

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Johnny Sweet, Oct 10, 2011.

  1. My buddy Jack who lives in another state had one of the last Total Performance T Buckets built. It took the builder two and a half years. He gets the car back and the brakes require two pumps to work properly. He's an old time racer from back in the day and figures all that's needed is a good bleeding. This is where it gets interesting. The master cylinder is a Speedway unit that was purchased new for the project. The master cylinder is not mounted on the fire wall, It's low in the frame below the wheel cylinders. Jack got one of those kits that allows you to reverse bleed the brakes. The same system I used back in the day on my Super Modified race cars. Between the two of us we have built, set up, or made brake parts for all kinds of applications, but at this point where stumped.
    Is there a check valve that must be installed in the system on a set up like this? We also don't know if the master cylinder is good, even though it's brand new. Just because something is new in this work doesn't mean it works. Some of you may have been where Jacks at.

    He can't take the car back to the builder because it's a day's drive, and having only one leg and MS getting around can be difficult. Jacks in Port Charlotte Florida. Any old HAMB guys in his area?
    Any help would be appreciated.
    Thanks, Johnny Sweet
  2. bgaro
    Joined: Sep 3, 2010
    Posts: 1,189


    in-line residual valves are typically used if the master is mounted low. i would start there before giving up on the master.
  3. Thanks, that's the direction ill send him in.
  4. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,792


    I have a Total frame and brake set up. The lines going to the front brakes are smaller in diameter to the ones going to the rear. That allows you not to need a residual valve in thier system.

    Total Performance got sold to Speedway, but Wintec Fabrication is the same people and they operate out of Florida. I'm sure they could help him out. Here's a link to thier site:

  5. bobscogin
    Joined: Feb 8, 2007
    Posts: 1,761


    What's the master cylinder bore size?

  6. budd
    Joined: Oct 31, 2006
    Posts: 3,478


    is it a disk front and drum rear? two pumps usely means the rear brakes are not adjusted up enough.
  7. That's corect Speedway has all the old inventory from Total Performance. This was the last car that Mikey sold before selling out. Half the stuff for the car wasn't available and the guys from Speedway where good enough to sell us all the old inventory that we needed from the Total Performance inventory. The items where sent to my shop in South Carolina and I made molds of the roof, and rear fenders. I then sent the stuff down to Florida. It took my buddy two and a half years to get his car. A lot of money was spent on the car and I was told that it drives like a baby carriage except for the brakes. To send it back to the builder would probably take another year to get it back.
    I guess the next thing will be to check what brake lines where used in the build and if he needs to change them. Ill have Jack check out Wintec Fabrication.
    Thanks for the information.
  8. Drums in the rear, and there up tight just short of scraping on the adjustment. But remember guys we are old car guys and have been doing brakes for fifty years. We just haven't had this double pump condition with a similar set up in the past. Where not sure what master cylinder they installed. Jack's checking numbers tomorrow, and calling Speedway. I may not have mentioned that it's a Speedway master cylinder. It could be a combination of to small a master cylinder along with the wrong brake lines in the front, and possibly it needs the 2 psi valve.
  9. usajsb2
    Joined: Aug 30, 2010
    Posts: 8


    Yes you will need the check valve if your master cylinder is mounted low/ level or lower than the calipers. I'm no expert but I inquired about this setup in the past and was told that when the mc is low a check valve traps a small amount of pressure in the line and caliper and is a must. Search some more Im sure that your on the right track.
  10. budd
    Joined: Oct 31, 2006
    Posts: 3,478


    i have also had masters that were bad, they would pump up but if you held just a light pressure they would seap down.
  11. My research shows that 2 psi in the front and a 6 psi valve in the rear. Thinking back when I was running Super Modified race cars back around thirty years ago I had a Clyde Booth car and the master cylinder was low in the car. I spent more time on the brakes and never got them to work the way I wanted them to, but ha, that was all out balls to the wall racing, and we never used them except when it was time to come into the pits.

    Thanks guys for all the help. You know the saying sometimes you can't see the forest from the trees. This was one of those times.
  12. davidwilson
    Joined: Oct 8, 2008
    Posts: 595

    from Tennessee

    get a 1 1/8" corvette master cylinder & your pedal will be less than 3/4" with no pumping - been there, done that
  13. 1 1/8" master cylinder sounds like a good base line to start from. Ill have Jack check the size of the master cylinder. He has part numbers to work with from Speedway it being a Speedway part.
    Thanks for the info.
  14. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?

    Just to clarify this, the difference in line size is to kill the need for a proportioning valve, not a residual valve. Most drum brake master cylinders have their residuale valves built in to the master itself. Most of the Masters that Speed way sells are actually disc brake cylinders which are not equipped with residuals. I think you are on the right track. Discs usually need about 2 pounds, drums 6-10 pounds.
  15. leon renaud
    Joined: Nov 12, 2005
    Posts: 1,935

    leon renaud
    from N.E. Ct.

    Wintecfabrication is still in Ct. not very far from the old Total performance they moved just up the road into bigger quarters.Mickey is now in Florida and selling just the KingT 27 T kit.
  16. Graffiti32
    Joined: Oct 9, 2005
    Posts: 392

    from Illinois

    A thousand words.:D

    Attached Files:

  17. gsport
    Joined: Jul 16, 2009
    Posts: 678


    i've got a question... if the master cylinder is firewall mounted, you wouldn't need residual valves??
  18. landseaandair
    Joined: Feb 23, 2009
    Posts: 4,411

    from phoenix

    Discs no but drums should regardless.
  19. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    from florida

    The idea of having a residual valve is to keep fluid from draining back into the MC if it is mounted lower than the wheel cylinders. If the MC is on the firewall you don't need them, but when it is below the floor you usually do.

    A 2 pound one is about right for front discs and a 10 pounder for the rear drums. Every car is different so you have to experiment, but those are good starting points.

  20. I would like to thank all the HAMB guys for there help on my friends T Bucket brake problem. Jack and I have been building and racing for over fifty years and in our old age decided to put all race things away and just drive our T Buckets. You would think that over the years we would have come up upon this problem, but we had not. That's the great thing about living a long life your always learning, and with good tutelage from knowledgeable people you can figure out almost anything.
    Thanks so much gentleman for the posts and the PM's.
    Johnny Sweet
  21. oldcarfart
    Joined: Apr 12, 2005
    Posts: 1,437


    How far are you from Clinton, SC (Laurens County) 29325? (I-26 @ 385 intersection) I may be able to help.
  22. I'm in Greenville county up I-26 from you near the North Carolina border, but the car, and my friend are in Port Charlotte Florida. I appreciate the offer.
    If there are any HAMB members around the Port Charlotte area Jack sure could use some help. Jack has MS and only one leg, but still gets around the best he can. Jack is one of the last original tough guys. He was an officer in the Marines in Vietnam with two tours. Never even got a scratch. Came home and lost one of his legs. Back in the early 70's when we ran hydroplanes Jack drove one at over 150 MPH with only the left leg to hold him in the boat. We moved the throttle to the left side. They attempted to put Jack on disability and he told them to keep there disability. When the Big Dig started Jack was a crane operator. He hauled his ass up 340' every day with one leg and a bucket to poop in. He would stay up in the crane for as many as twenty hours on some day's. O, by the way there are no elevators up to the top, and lets not forget the day's that the wind was blowing and it was 4 degrees out. Jack worked on the Big Dig for eleven years. He then retired to Florida and got MS.
    Years ago when he was up North he shoveled snow by sitting on a milk crate. He just moved the crate along by scooting it down the driveway as he shoveled the snow. He's not the kind to wait for someone else to do his work.
    Jack will be OK he's one tough guy and doesn't know the words quite.
    I apologize for babbling on.
    Thanks again, Johnny Sweet
  23. Jimv
    Joined: Dec 5, 2001
    Posts: 2,924


    Try the they usually are good with these things
  24. budd
    Joined: Oct 31, 2006
    Posts: 3,478


    what have you figured out? any headway?
  25. porkchop4464
    Joined: Jan 20, 2009
    Posts: 879


    Just my two cents. Considering what he prob has in the build already (money-wise) and just for a clear mind that all parts are new, take a trip to the local Autozone and by the larger GM master cylinder for the Vette new; also, pick up the res. valves (both front and back), change the front lines to the smaller, and after 100 bucks of spending, the commotion will prob be removed. Worse case, he has an extra master cylinder laying around for another project. Man, I really dig all your tales. Sounds like you sure have seen a bunch of racing and crazy %^%@! Keep on trucking!
  26. V8 Bob
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,741

    V8 Bob

    Both of these statements are just not true! :confused: Brake line size (diameter) has nothing to do with residuals or prop valves, and there is no good reason to use different diameter front and rear lines on most cars and light trucks, including T-buckets. Standard 3/16" will do just fine.
    Discs normally require a 2 lb residual when the master cylinder is mounted below the floor. All drum brakes needed residuals up to the early '70s, but using an internal factory or external 10 lb residual on later drums can be of benefit.
  27. Jmountainjr
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 1,317


    thirty years ago I had a Clyde Booth car

    Johnny - and Clyde had such a reputation for building awesome stuff, and still does today! Hope you get your friends brakes fixed.
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012

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