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Help! my rocket died!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 3x2rocket, Jan 13, 2008.

  1. 3x2rocket
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 248

    3x2rocket
    Member

    so my very recently rebuilt 55 olds 324 now with 4" bore Isky cam and #10 heads was built by a very reputable shop in Los Angeles. I was driving down to San Diego today with the dual purpose of helping my dad get into his new house and putting some miles on the car to complete the break in. I've only put around 200-250miles on it all very gentle(it has not seen more than maybe 3000rpm at the most) and as I was cruising between 1800-2200rpms it felt great, smooth and powerful. All of a sudden it began to make a ticking which quickly turned into a loud knocking. Terrified I immediately exited the freeway noticing the temp was still low and the oil pressure was normal and pulled into a gas station. Clearly the noise was from the driver's side and I removed the valve cover and sure enough #3 exhaust valve pushrod top now looks more like a mushroom, and theres lots of metal shards from it all around the hole.

    My questions for the hamb gurus are:

    1 How the hell did this happen?! piston valve collision? rod?

    2 what may be to blame? or who rather is to blame?

    3 How should I deal with the shop when I call them tomarrow morning? What should I expect from them?

    4 due to the metal fragments from my pushrod now in my oil in my mind the entire thing is ruined! Will it need complete re-machining?

    This build cost me $4500.00 and now my car is more than two hours drive south of the shop, kinda pricey tow even when you have AAA.

    Thanks for all input!
     
  2. i woudl take it back to the machine shop that put it together... but it could maybe just be a rocker that was tooooo tight?
     
  3. 3x2rocket
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 248

    3x2rocket
    Member

    Can't be too tight a rocker since I (unfortunately) do not have the adjustable ones. Been trying to get some though but they are mighty pricey!
     
  4. yorgatron
    Joined: Jan 25, 2002
    Posts: 4,228

    yorgatron
    Member Emeritus

    rockets are notorious for oiling problems on the top end,specifically not enough oil to the rocker shafts.
    i ate a pushrod ( it was an expensive original Iskenderian chromoly set i paid like $50 for on ebay) on my 324 :(

    i have since decided to upgrade to the '56 #10 cylinder heads,and when i do i plan on installing outside oilers.
    here's a picture of a kit someone was selling on ebay,i didn't buy it because i figured i could do it myself with stuff from the hardware store.
     

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  5. 3x2rocket
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 248

    3x2rocket
    Member

    Thanks Yorgatron I was hoping you would see this. It does have those cylinder heads and the top of the rocker shaft mount near the #5 cylinder did look kinda dry, but this thing is supposed to have a new and better oil pump along with some drilling to correct that very flaw. The shop that did the work had just finished building a 324 for nostalgia drag racing and told me they knew all the mods I mentioned.
     
  6. yorgatron
    Joined: Jan 25, 2002
    Posts: 4,228

    yorgatron
    Member Emeritus

    i don't know why they do this,i thought everything was perfect when i put mine together.
    but we are not the 1st people this has happened to.
    the other modification i'm doing is installing Studebaker adjustable rocker arms on Cadillac rocker shafts,so i can give back the Isky rockers i've been borrowing for way too long :rolleyes:
     
  7. DON_WOW
    Joined: Feb 14, 2002
    Posts: 218

    DON_WOW
    Member Emeritus

    One thing a lot of guys skimp on is a GOOD cleaning of the rocker shafts. Lots of sludge hides inside of rocker shafts. A bunch of solvent ,air pressure, thru all oil holes where the rocker arms ride. Clean,clean,clean, then run a Dill's pipe cleaner thru all passages untill it stays white,, and the same treatment goes for all rocker arms also. Then use a series -3 diesel oil. After the cam beak in, take the car out and hammer it from 30 mph to 80 ten times with a coast down in between each charge back up to 80. Break in is done, of course keep eye on temp and oil pressure during the runs. Drive as if it had been in use for years from there on out.
     
  8. 3x2rocket
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 248

    3x2rocket
    Member

    Thanks Don! The shop owner who did the block and heads for me had me take it to a shop at his expense since I am stranded without my tools or space to work. At the shop I took the valve cover back off and I think you hit the nail on the head because in daylight it looks really dry in there! The mechanic at the shop agrees as well and he will be in touch with my machinist and luckily all my original pushrods are in the trunk.

    I fear those metal shards from the pushrod! If this was the cause and it is corrected can I trust this engine without doing a complete teardown?
     
  9. DON_WOW
    Joined: Feb 14, 2002
    Posts: 218

    DON_WOW
    Member Emeritus

    First the rocker arm on the fubar pushrod must be replaced. It is ruined. Pull the intake and valley pan off. All debris is on top of the head plus what made its way down the pushrod hole into the block around the lifters and cam area. From there it made its way past the crank into the pan.
    A major wash and flush with diesel fuel in the lifter and cam area will get all crap to the pan. Intake and cover gaskets can be reused if care is taken when removing. Next pull oil pan and clean,clean. It will come off with the engine in the car. Screen on oil pump is next in line for a scrub, easy to remove and replace. Turn engine backwards a few turns by hand to void oil pump.
    Rubber gasket on ends of the pan can be reused, cork on each side is your call. Change new oil filter after fifty or so miles.
    Been thru this and had no problem---what finite trash that made it to the bearings will enbed in the bearing and cause no failure ----we hope-------not perfect as like a fresh new build, but is best solution short of a complete teardown and buying all new bearings. In years past I had same case , plus on another a cam went flat and really made a ton of grit----done the above and had no issues from there on . Good luck.
     
  10. belair
    Joined: Jul 10, 2006
    Posts: 9,013

    belair
    Member

    WOW-whata shame. I just spent about 400.00$ getting my Rocket on the road and thought THAT was a lot of money. My biggest expence was a new rocker set-up from rockerarms.com and some new push rods. Mine are still fairly noisey-is that the norm, or would new lifters help? Don't mean to jack the thread. Hope you can do a quick and long-term fix. If the oil pan's off, why not check the bearings-get a little info and some peace of mind. Good luck, fellow rocketeer
     
  11. 3x2rocket
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 248

    3x2rocket
    Member

    Well here's the update... It was indeed an oiling failure. not sure why yet but The owner of the shop that built the block and heads had me drop it at a local shop to do r&r on it with his instructions... and he is now having them pull the engine and bring it back up to his shop on his dime so he sure does stand by his work which is all I can ask for. Hopefully I'll have it back on the road soon, this time with every oiling modification possible! Thanks for all your input! I'm so thankful for the opportunity to learn from guys with so much knowledge and experience.
     
  12. GREASEMONKEY72
    Joined: Nov 29, 2007
    Posts: 497

    GREASEMONKEY72
    Member

    nice to know theres still guys out there that will stand by there word/work

    good luck on getting your car back on the road
     
  13. blackrat40
    Joined: Apr 19, 2006
    Posts: 1,167

    blackrat40
    Member Emeritus

    I got brand new rocker shafts for my 324 rocket from Terrill Machine in
    DeLeon,Texas.
    Seems like they were about $50.
     
  14. 3x2rocket
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 248

    3x2rocket
    Member

    thanks Blackrat, were they the adjustable ones by any chance?
     
  15. pete324rocket
    Joined: Nov 7, 2007
    Posts: 99

    pete324rocket
    Member

    I've seen that kit on ebay before...I can barely read the print on the instructions but seems to suggest running a line from the oil filter housing(there is a plug there) and running it up to ???? . I can read that it says no drilling, so how does it make it to the rocker shafts? -without going thru the valve covers-find me an oil passage somewhere! pete
     
  16. yorgatron
    Joined: Jan 25, 2002
    Posts: 4,228

    yorgatron
    Member Emeritus


    it would probably be easiest to double up the cork-style valve cover gaskets and go through them from the intake manifold side.
     
  17. 3x2rocket
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 248

    3x2rocket
    Member

    I like that idea! I'm thinking overkill to correct this oiling situation, not sure if I can afford it right now but I really want to use this Isky 505t roller cam I have, I know its too severe for practical driving since I like it when my brakes work and the rocket weighs about two tons, but perhaps I could re-grind it to right where the Isky 3/4 cam was. Even though I never hit it with that cam it felt like it was just getting started right around 2200rpm, It was custom ground by Ross in Ohio and it felt just right as I lost only a little bottom end torque, maybe just another cam would be better? Looks like theres a few options as far as roller lifters go now that I've committed to reading every post by Don Wow, Yorgatron, and Blownolds. That awesome archived early rocket engine summary thread should be required reading for anyone with a rocket, includes tons of info from the above mentioned posters and more.

    Small update: the new theory is cam or cam bushing slide causing restriction of oil flow to the heads? I've never heard of this before but its only a theory at the moment, does make some sense to me though because when i was priming the oil pump before starting it, I spun it by hand and saw oil coming out the top, then I spun it with the starter and it squirted all over. I can't think of anything else that would stop the oiling while rolling down the freeway.

    Also looks like the obvious mushroom top pushrod was not the only damaged one so I guess I'll be looking around for all new rockers. I just may have to copy your moves a bit Yorgatron, but imitation is the greatest form of flattery!
     
  18. DON_WOW
    Joined: Feb 14, 2002
    Posts: 218

    DON_WOW
    Member Emeritus

    Here is a little hint, old fart back in the 50's showed me when installing sleeves in fords 8n and international M's tractors AND cam bearings to keep everthing in place and not shift around, a trick that works. Coat the sleeves on the outside completely and just a smear on the outside of the cam bearing with ,, pure glycerin ,, get it at any drug store. The heat after start up will set it and it acts as a lock tight .. it works and i never had a bearing turn or slip. Just one of the things i always do but don't think about untill something comes up about the subject.
     
  19. CGkidd
    Joined: Mar 2, 2002
    Posts: 2,909

    CGkidd
    Member

    Thanks for the info DON WOW. As far as adjustable rocker arms I picked up a set from Rocker arm specialist in Ca.
     
  20. 3x2rocket
    Joined: May 1, 2007
    Posts: 248

    3x2rocket
    Member

    Update: So the rocket is still down in Encinitas, the engine is apart at the shop up here and the word is flat camshaft due to either camshaft failure or improper break-in, which means they did not make any assembly mistakes, and I do trust and respect this guy alot.

    Dammit!

    I saw oil squirting out the top of the valvetrain, ran it at 1800rpm for 30 min after I first started it and the thing ran flat two months later plugging the oil holes with cam shavings. Is there something I did wrong? Or perhaps just a better way?

    The shop has covered the cost of engine removal and went down there to get it! And he will re-do all the necessary labor, so I could not be happier with their dedication but looks like I'll need to replace the parts myself. I ran the using my Isky 505t roller cam idea by his top guy and he seems to think its not the best idea since its still solid the cam will still have the same dicey break in, but I was thinking: Would using an extra-oiling modification like Yorgatron posted above not help by squirting oil down onto the cam? Or will that sort of mod only oil the shaft/rockers?

    I guess I'm just looking for some extra insurance after doing this again, not to mention opening my quickly-getting-lighter wallet again!

    Anyone selling adj. rockers out there?
     
  21. 7&7
    Joined: Jan 6, 2006
    Posts: 362

    7&7
    Member
    from Colorado

    If you look on Mondello's web site you will see a lot of interesting info on Oldsmobile oiling. Granted it mostly pertains to the mid 60's engines never the less if you look at your 303-324-371-394 you will see similarities in how GM machined these blocks. Further more I have a NOS Isky roller in the garage with original paperwork warning against rocker stantion height and rocker ratio. Use black molly on the next cam you install. And also break it in with Rotella T use this instead of oil for the cam break in. What did you use for a oil pump? Rebuild kit? If so, did they square the pump housing? Another way to get proper oil in a Olds is to dress the block completely. Smooth all the interior drain passages port/polish the pump discharge.Oh yea look at the installed height of your valve springs. If your springs are bottoming out then you will kill a cam in minutes.And since you are taking it apart take the spring cups off. This will help cool your springs a little. For $4500 you should have positive valve seals right? If you used 56 heads then your valve geometry may be off. Have them check that when you put it back together. With these early engines you have to make sure you line up all of the oil passages when you start swaping blocks,heads,stantions,rockers. Also the cam bearings in the early Olds have holes in them for correct oiling as well . Shit I could write for ever on what it could be. Good luck on figuring it out.
     

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