Technical Help me understand GM power windows

I'm rewiring my 64 Riviera's power windows. I've got questions about switches and motor systems.

I understand that GM used a body grounded window motor, and the window switches only routed the positive side of voltage. The two wires that go to the motor were both positive, and each wire would run the motor in a different direction.

Did that change to a positive-negative wire system (like Ford) at some point in the 90's?

I'm attempting to wire in some "One Touch" window relay modules from mid 90's Pontiacs and Buicks. They allow "express down" windows by tapping the switch. They only have 4 wires: power, switch signal down, switch signal up (to interrupt the express down motion), and motor input down. I'm bench testing the setup, and it only works normal, no express down feature.

I suspect that they are actually meant for a positive-negative wired motor and switches. I can't find clear documentation of this on the internet, anywhere. My ultimate goal is to have express up and down on all 4 windows. I really like the feature, and the modules were only $5 each. It requires 2 modules per window, one for express up, one express down.

I'm ready to throw it all in the trash, but I want to make sure i'm not missing something obvious. Wiring is not my strong point. Any info is greatly appreciated.

 

Experiment by alternating wiring combinations. With that said, if you are going to pitch the system, I will give you my address.


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Ps Ford did that switch in the 56 models. If memory serves.


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Be sure to read all the notes contained within.
It might be helpful it know exactly what year and model the switch is from.

 

Here's a diagram I modified from one I found on a site, and verified with a couple others I found. The large letters correspond with the letters on each wire on the module. The modules came from several different cars, and appear to be identical. Typically from mid-late 90's LeSabre, and Bonnevilles. It appeared that the early 2000 and later cars went with a body control module instead.

According to the diagrams, it should be a two-positive wire system, just like the older GM cars. I'm not seeing a ground wire anywhere. But wired up, it's just a bypass... it's not doing anything.

I made the mistake of using Ford modules before, and it took a bit before I realized that Ford reverses the polarity of the motor's wires for up and down. They don't work with GM old switches or motors. I'm not sure if I'm seeing that here or not. They acted the same... just as a pass-through.

 

If you're looking for them, I've found that they're on 1993-1998 or so C or H body GM - LeSabre, Park Avenue, 88, 98, Bonnevilles. They were optional on those cars, but I've had the best luck at the pick-a-part with LeSabre and Park Avenue cars.

 

Fuck it. Keep it a secret then.

 

Express down is for pussies anyways.
Real hot rodders can hold the down button all the way.

 

Mojo
What exactly are these modules?

 

The modules came from several different cars, and appear to be identical. Typically from mid-late 90's LeSabre, and Bonnevilles. There's only one per car, so I pulled them from 8 different cars at the local pick a part.

 

Here's a pic. It's a solid state relay that automatically lowers a window when you press the switch for a second and let go. It keeps going until it hits resistance (the window stop), or until you tap the up button. They're inside the door panel, wired between the switch, and the window motor. They can be wired together to get up and down automatically.

 

I'm old and lazy. Besides, the car is going to be a mild custom eventually. Hotrods are to impress guys, customs are to impress girls.

 

huh....I met my wife at the drag strip



that module is just what our robot needed, so it would stop climbing the rope when it reached the top. Although it would be illegal to use, sort of like it's illegal to use it on a HAMB car



(two smileys in one post!)

 

Found some more info. The modules are indeed for reversing polarity motors and switches. GM apparently switched from chassis ground dual wound motors, to reversing polarity sometime in the early 80's.

I've been reading about using relays to reverse polarity, but I'm probably going to just go with Directed Electronics 535T module. Does 2 windows in both directions.

 

What, more info like the pic I posted?

Oh, And the entire system needs to be wired and hooked up both sides or it won't work.

 

No. I appreciated your input, but I have several versions of similar wiring diagrams. I meant that GM switched from body ground window motors to reversing polarity motors at some point in the early 1980's. Parts from before and after that change-over don't interchange.

TL;DR one touch modules won't work on earlier systems.

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/threads/aftermarket-power-windows.301928/

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/123862-DEI535-pwr-window-controller

 

The diagram posted above clearly shows that the switch itself reverses the polarity for motor's direction and that the motors have no dedicated ground.

The next generation after these use the same type of motors but different switches , different wiring logic and a body control module.


It's very likely that a later reversible motor configuration in the same frame as the mid 60s Windows is available. 3 bolts or rivets onto your regulators and the express down will work. Your 60s window motors won't last forever, but they have lasted longer than any new style has-lol

 

Ok, I get what you're saying now. That's the direction I'm heading now actually. The newer motors in the sheetmetal bodies have several mounting holes, and eyeballing it, looks like it will fit. They're dirt cheap compared to the old motors, and easier to get a hold of. I need to buy one and see how it fits. I tested a old style remanned motor, and it only pulled 6 amps compared to my old cleaned up original motor that pulled 11 amps (running free on the bench). So I'm interested in replacing all of them.

I want to use my shiny, really expensive vintage window switches, so I'm trying to wrap my brain around polarity relays between the switches and the module, and use the later motor. It's not worth the expense or effort anymore, but I'd like to see if I can make it work.

 

Cheap and easy
Here's the relay layout you need to use the later motors with old switch,,,
but you'll just need to rename it from lock and unlock to up and down and that goes to your switch. Picture the solenoid shown the window motor.

.

You can physically Put the module any where just wired between the relays and the motor


Like this -

Switch down_______________________________________switch up

 

That is exactly what I'm looking for, thank you!

Conversely, is there a means to use relays to output to the old motor? Two positive outputs, and a chassis ground? Sorry if these seem like dumb questions. I'm not great at wrapping my head around electricity. I'm a gears and levers kinda guy.

 

Pass or fail ? Made these for my 56 because I had to for some crazy reason.

 

Not really that I know of- what you need is a "flip flop latching relay" & that's easy enough but you need a limit interrupter in it too. That's why they made the module.

The flip flop latching relay closes and stays closed {express down} and momentary touch of the same button will open the relay {mid way stop} the problem stopping the window on the bottom with momentary contact.

That's all based on you using old switches, old motors, and getting an express down function.

 

Ah ok, I kinda figured it was no-go, but didn't understand why.

One more question. With the module, and late model reversing motors, is it still ok to run relays between the motor and module to get max amps? What started me down this path, was seeing a video on youtube of running relays before the motor, to allow max power to reach the motor and make the windows work faster and smoother.

Plans were to run relays at the motors, and 10GA wire, to allow them to pull as much as they needed. Does this interfere with the modules? (it sounds like they're amp sensing, to know to stop at the bottom of the window)

I'll grab a late model motor at the pick and pull and see if I can get it bolted to the regulator.

 

The module is what causing you fits here. Everything is a work around or redesign to incorporate the odd man out.

The chain needs to go, your switch to the reversing relays to the module to the late style motor.

Your existing switch doesn't not reverse polarity and provides no ground - problem
The module needs to see the reversing polarity - problem
The addition of polarity reversing relay layout above solves both of those problems. - check
The module controls the motor, one type of motor. - problem
Getting that type of motor connected to your early regulator solves that problem. -ytbd check

Now you want relays for full amperage between the module and the motor.- problem
Another set of polarity reversing relays would be needed - check

 

Does anyone know the exact year GM changed from the 2 positive wires, grounded case motors? I need to get some old window switches at my local junk yard and need to know how new I can go.

 

IIRC it was 1980 for the full size GM cars. The ones with the plastic drive tape instead of the spring loaded arms. Stamped motor and again IIRC they were silver cases vs. the earlier black painted motors. Again if memory is correct those were all plastic switches instead of the diecast metal and fiberboard (opaque) terminal plate.

 

Looks like I'm putting the module thing on hold indefinitely. I'm concerned about newer motors not having the torque to lift the Riv's heavy windows. I think it's going to take some testing to see what's what. Thanks for the info!

 

It seems to depend on the car too. They seemed to transition between motor types on different years for different cars. I haven't been able to determine. But like Shovelheadrider said, the stamped cases seem to be the reversing motors.

 

Care to double check me here? This is a revised wiring sketch incorporating the relays for the switch, and a newer style reversing polarity motor. The two modules are to get auto up and down.