Register now to get rid of these ads!

Help me get my 430 Lincoln running.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Brady, Apr 15, 2013.

  1. Brady
    Joined: Oct 12, 2009
    Posts: 74

    Brady
    Member

    I have been fighting this freshly rebuilt 1961 430 Lincoln for over a month and cant for the life of me figure out what is wrong, any ideas or suggestions no matter how outlandish will be GREATLY appreciated!

    The issue:
    -The engine wont start
    -It has started and ran for a couple minutes 3 or 4 times. It will stutter and die and wont fire up again
    -Every other time I try to start it, it either wont fire or will only run for a couple seconds
    -A few times it made popping sounds like the timing is way out
    -It will only start and run if it is cold

    What I have tried/replaced:
    -I rebuilt the distributor and since have put new:
    -Distrubutor Cap
    -Rotor
    -Condenser (I pulled it out of circuit and Ohm'd it, it charges and discharges as it should)
    -Points (I have checked and re-checked the 0.016 gap)
    -Checked the breaker plate (it doesn't move more than it would with the vacuum advance
    -2x MSD Blaster 2 coils (I've changed these out twice and Ohm'd the primary and secondary both of which are very close to spec)
    -I have the required 0.8 ohm ballast resistor
    -I am running a jumper straight from the battery to the + side of the primary to cut out any wiring problems from the key to the coil
    -I have replaced the wire from - side of the coil primary to the distributor
    -The spark plugs are new and gapped at 0.35 (I have noticed 2 of the 8 have been wet after trying to fire it up)
    -I have a new Holley 650 carb ( I have adjusted this everywhere from 1/4 turn to 3 turns out, when it has fired up and run it has been at the standard 1 1/2 turns out)
    -Ive pulled the sight plugs and gas is visible right at the bottom of the hole
    -Gas is clean and only a few weeks old
    -I have re-set to TDC and lined up the distributor a couple times ( I haven't pulled the distributor just twisted. I have set it anywhere from 0 deg to 6 deg BTDC)
    -I disconnected the alternator and tried firing it with it out of circuit.
    -I have new (cheap) plug wires and I have ohm'd them all of which have high resistance but according to the specs they are supposed to.
    -I have multiple grounds to chassis and am able to get a good ground reference anywhere on the car.


    Ive tried using starting fluid to start it but it hasn't worked either. Do I need to prime the engine with starting fluid? I have done this as a one man operation spray some in and run back to the key and hit it. Would it be more effective as a two man operation?

    Once again any help is appreciated!
     
  2. Rattle Trap
    Joined: May 11, 2012
    Posts: 358

    Rattle Trap
    Member

    Start fresh. Check compression, Make sure the carb is squirting fuel, Check for spark. Were the valves adjusted to spec when it was assembled? Who put it together, You?
     
  3. Brady
    Joined: Oct 12, 2009
    Posts: 74

    Brady
    Member

    The block and heads were taken care of at a machine shop. The carb squirts a nice stream of gas. I kept thinking the spark was weak because it wasn't a blue spark, it was orange. I got an inline spark tester and it lights up but I'm not sure of how intense the light should be. I checked out some videos on you tube and it appeared to be the same intensity as displayed on mine but I have no clue, might hook it up to a running vehicle to see what it looks like.
     
  4. RayJarvis
    Joined: Oct 11, 2010
    Posts: 209

    RayJarvis
    Member

    check your fuel pump. then make sure all your plug wires are fireing and in the right order.if your fuel pump is weak or the lines are partially plugged it wont run for long .also i run my 430 between 8 and12 btdc.starting fluid is a bust. if your carb is squirting gas into engine when you cycle the accellerator you shouldnt need it. who did rebuild and reassembly? confirm number one valves and timeing mark are where they should be on number one ignition stroke. both valves closed at tdc.i also like the idea of a compression check on all 8 cylinders.make sure valves are opening and closeing when they should
     

  5. I am no expert but I will share one experience I had. Myself and buddy were working on his truck and he and done a tune up and we could not get the truck to fire no matter what had four other people come by still nothing. He finally actually bought a short block and swapped all his parts on to it. Long story short he had the wrong plugs. In line tester showed spark but they were to short to fire the motor. And another thought or two. Go ahead and buy new plug wires.
     
  6. Rattle Trap
    Joined: May 11, 2012
    Posts: 358

    Rattle Trap
    Member

    Who adjusted the valves? I have never worked on a lincoln 430 but Im sure it's basicly the same as any other engine. Were the stock pistons used in the build? Does it turn over fast when you crank it? Like said above, Check firing order.
     
  7. modeleh
    Joined: Oct 29, 2009
    Posts: 380

    modeleh
    Member

    Go over everything again looking for a possible big vacuum leak. I just had a dumb dumb moment this morning after trying get my Ranchero running after doing an intake swap. It was hard starting and since I had the distributor out, I was focusing on timing. Running real rough and wouldn't idle without constant throttle manipulation. Had to increase the idle screw way up just so I could keep it running as I fumbled around with my hands all around the back of the carb, my thumb fell into an open 3/8 pipe thread bore where a vacuum tree should have been. Pipe plug in the hole and she was purring. Here's to hoping your issue is simple like mine was.
     
  8. Don't know a thing about MEL engines but do the timing marks line up dot to dot or a certain number of timing chain links apart similar to y-block?


    Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad
     
  9. If it starts at all, I'd discount any basic "tune up" problems like firing order, initial timing, plug wires etc. FE-style engines and MELs have non adjustable valves with Hydraulic lifters. The valves are set when grinding them. There is a "valve height" specification that must be set when the machinist is grinding the valves. If that measurement is wrong due to sunken valves [unleaded fuel and normal wear] or the machinist didn't set it, I can see where the cold engine might fire up and run until normal heat expansion could bottom the lifters out and hang the valves open enough to slowly loose compression and cause the engine to begin to backfire as the engine warmed up...through the carb if intake valves are affected, through the exhaust if the exhaust valves are affected or both. The exhaust would be affected first because the exhaust valves get hot first. It's possible when the exhaust valves hang open, the engine pops back through the mufflers and would die, not to start again until the engine cooled down enough to close the valves again...just a thought but I'd be checking the "installed height" of my valves.
     
  10. Rattle Trap
    Joined: May 11, 2012
    Posts: 358

    Rattle Trap
    Member

    Rocky, I was thinking along the same lines. That's why I was asking about valve adjustment and compression. I think a compression check would be a good place to start. If nothing else but to eliminate a possible engine build issue.
     
  11. Yup, a hot compression test [if possible] should tell the story.
     
  12. Fairlane Mike
    Joined: Sep 21, 2010
    Posts: 389

    Fairlane Mike
    Member

    You did say it would run for a couple of minutes. Did it run okay then? Orange spark, you may have a bad condenser, try a different one anyway, they can be very tricky!!
     
  13. hoop98
    Joined: Jan 23, 2013
    Posts: 1,362

    hoop98
    Member
    from Texas

    agree orange spark likely bad condenser.
     
  14. I agree with post #5. Make sure you have the correct plugs and splurge for new wires. The wires alone can account for the weak spark.

    Look up how to check plug wires for resistance, since you have an ohm meter.

    Do you have a HAMBer who lives close by? Sometimes it takes another person to see something that may be overlooked.

    Bob
     
  15. keyster
    Joined: Dec 27, 2011
    Posts: 26

    keyster
    Member

    Another vote for condenser.
    They can bench test fine and fail when in real world conditions.

    K
     
  16. oldtom69
    Joined: Dec 6, 2009
    Posts: 538

    oldtom69
    Member
    from grandin nd

    my vote is valves too tight on adjustment-you crank long enough to colapse the lifters and get a little clearance,it fires,pumps up the lifters and dies-crank again for a long time,colapse the lifters again and start the process all over again.I'm guessing the 430 has non-adjustable rockers and the valves got sunk enough when the shop ground them.usually the stems get cut to maintain stem height when assembled.the engine is probably older than the machinist the worked on it!
     
  17. ADVANCE1
    Joined: Nov 9, 2008
    Posts: 270

    ADVANCE1
    Member
    from Ohio

    Start over, with engine off take #1 plug out then turn engine over until #1 is at top dead center on compression stroke, check to make sure timing mark is at 6-10 degrees, with dist bolt down loose put a plug on #1 wire and ground it then twist dist. back and forth fast and look at plug to see if sparking, try to stop just as its sparking and you now its timed and should start right up, then check to see if your rotor is where it should be at #1 firing on your dist. cap, and then make sure your plug wires are in there proper order, the engine should start if all else is right
     
  18. I would first check valve timing and lash. look at # 1 cly intake valve and turn the engine buy the starter looking at the intake valve to be compressed and then fully close then stop craking. Now turn the engine by hand the same rotation as the starter untill the timing marks line up at TDC. Now at TDC booth of #1 valves should be fully closed if not your cam timing is most likely off. If cam timing looks good check valve lash by colapsing booth lifters by steadly pushing down on rocker arm. This will usally take a little time so do not get in a big hurry and use excesive force. I do not know the proper valve lash for your MEL but you should have a good amount of clearnce between the valve stem and rocker with the lifter fully collapsed like 1/16" to 3/16". If every thing still looks good do a compression test. It seems like you have already tested all the fuel & spark but i once had a bad new high dollar MSD distrbuture cap that cause me days to get a new engine running
     
  19. hoop98
    Joined: Jan 23, 2013
    Posts: 1,362

    hoop98
    Member
    from Texas

    Spark can be a little tricky to check. Find an extended gap plug and cut the ground electrode off. The .035 gap only takes about 2500 volts to jump in "air".

    A standard spark tester is available that requires about 15K and HEI testers require about 25K.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/p-25717-standard-ignition-tester.aspx.


    Another somewhat rare problem is a stuck oil relief valve. The high pressure will pump the lifters up after starting.

    When you try to crank it again the engine will spin faster than normal.

    Hoop
     
  20. tommy
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 14,757

    tommy
    Member Emeritus

    I tried for a while to get my brand new 352 FE engine to start. I was very nervous about wiping the new cam. I had a couple of friends come over.

    We took a compression test and several of the cylinders had only 60 lbs. I thought the engine must be junk. He said pull the plugs and squirt some oil in each plug hole. I did and it started right up smoking us out of the garage. We seated the rings in the normal way and it has been fine.

    I never would have thought to take a compression test on a brand new engine. It found my problem. Don't assume anything.
     
  21. Good point especially if its been sitting around, doubly so if starting fluid (hate the stuff..) was used and washed down the cylinder walls.

    After 1 experience with a balky stock engine that sat in the off-season, from then on they were primed first and got a few shots of MMO in each cylinder.

    Bob
     
  22. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 5,470

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    I'd ditch that condenser. JMO. Lippy
     
  23. Brady
    Joined: Oct 12, 2009
    Posts: 74

    Brady
    Member

    Thanks a lot for all the replies! I have not checked compression because it is a fresh rebuild. I was fairly certain about the valves being non adjustable but didn't want to say that it was the truth until I had done some research. I guess a compression test is in order. Too bad I can't get it to run long enough to warm up the engine to test. I am planning on a get together with some very knowledgeable people. Going to do a cook out so, if any mid-Tennessee hambers are interested shoot me a message, I am determined to figure it out now. I am going to bring an oscilloscope home to accurately measure my spark.
    So, compression and valve lash possible plug wires or plugs that are too short. Any other opinions?
     
  24. tommy
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 14,757

    tommy
    Member Emeritus

    We did the test cold. If you get a low reading like I did get a pump oil squirt can and squirt some oil in the cylinders and be ready in case it starts. Ive usually run used engines. I too was sure the engine being new could not cause my problem. My buddy has built many many engines so i took his word even though I was skeptical. My engine sat for a while and I added oil before turning it over dry but a few moths went by before it was ready to start. Cold I had 60 lbs on a couple cylinders. I was sure it was assembled wrong (not me) but I was smiling like a Cheshire cat when it fired up. Try it what have you got to loose.
     
  25. If you've worked with nothing but small block Chevys this is the kind of stuff that can really throw you for a loop. It's easy to make bad assuptions about a type of engine that you're not used to working on. Not every engine has the same firing order or has the no.1 cylinder in the same location. And not every engine has adjustable rockers. For the problem described above, a batch of weak valve springs would also make matters worse.
     
  26. rld14
    Joined: Mar 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,609

    rld14
    Member

    MEL compression should be checked hot.

    Also, did you use flat top pistons? If you did then you have, at best, 8.5:1 compression to begin with.
     
  27. Brady
    Joined: Oct 12, 2009
    Posts: 74

    Brady
    Member

    Alright, so i finally got around to doing a compression test. Had some major life events go down over the last couple weeks and working on cars was low on the list. My tests were done dry and my readings were as follows:
    1 115 psi
    2 110 psi
    3 104 psi
    4 120 psi
    5 105 psi
    6 115 psi
    7 105 psi
    8 105 psi

    The spec is 180 psi so this is where my problem lies. The engine has sat for a few months since the rebuild and like I stated earlier I used starting fluid to try and start it, so at this point I'll squirt some oil into the cylinders and see where I am at after that. I have my fingers crossed that I have the same issue that Tommy did...
     
  28. blackcreek
    Joined: Apr 3, 2013
    Posts: 22

    blackcreek
    Member

    That engine should start and run with those compression readings.If the engine is turning over fast enough and you have verified that the valve timing and the ignition timing are correct it should start and run. You are getting fuel, you have ignition and you have compression the engine should run. Is it possible that your exhaust system is plugged? If the exhaust is hooked up disconnect the pipes at the manifold and see what happens.
     
  29. Brady
    Joined: Oct 12, 2009
    Posts: 74

    Brady
    Member

    I have no exhaust on the engine just the headers. This is also my thought.."it should run"
     
  30. torana
    Joined: Mar 9, 2007
    Posts: 25

    torana
    Member

    spark plug leads not connected in the correct order?
    cam timing out a couple of teeth?
    distributor 180 degress out?

    cheers Julian
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.