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help installing 500/TH350 in my '54 two door Cadillac

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by YOLO, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. YOLO
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 67

    YOLO
    Member

    **Friday update** How do I identify what year my 500ci came out of? I wad told '72 but I need a starter and I need to buy the right one.

    I have searched and searched. I am hoping a few of you have specific details. Exactly what oil pan do I need (year, make, model), same goes for exhaust manifold. Did you modify your stock transmission cross member? Did you cut your firewall? What radiator and fans did you use? Anyone have engine bay pictures of your conversions?
    The 500 I have is supposed to be out of a 1972 Cadillac. Any help would be appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  2. drptop70ss
    Joined: May 31, 2010
    Posts: 1,149

    drptop70ss
    Member
    from NY

    Last 472 cadillac engine I had used a front sump pan which fit nothing, needed the eldorado rear sump pan and pickup, also if I remember correctly it was the eldo passenger side exhaust manifold as well. Everything depends on your setup, should be plenty of info on the net.
     
  3. mechanic58
    Joined: Mar 21, 2010
    Posts: 681

    mechanic58
    Member

    http://www.500cid.com/ <-- you may find what you need here.

    Here's a 500 I built several years ago - it has an El Dorado pan on it:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. The things they tell you to raise the prices on already rare items.

    You do not NEED an Eldorado pan. You DO need a rear sump pan, which, strictly speaking, the Eldo pan is NOT (it's a mid-sump).

    You may purchase, at considerable savings, a 425 or 368 or V8-6-4 pan and pickup. Or the whole bleeding engine, since no one wants these.

    Thing to remember: the 425 was a weight-watcher engine, so the main caps were not as beefy. So, you need to shorten the pickup bracket about 1/2 inch.

    BTW, how to recognise the 425 pan over the Eldo pan: The 425 has it's sump well to the rear, with virtually no hump at the rear, and one drain plug. The Eldo pan has a hump at the rear (it's mid-sump, you see), and two drain plugs as it has, effectively, two sumps.

    Cosmo
     
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  5. mechanic58
    Joined: Mar 21, 2010
    Posts: 681

    mechanic58
    Member

    I think you're mistaken about the El Dorado oil pan my friend - see my post above yours. I personally removed that engine from a '76 El Dorado - that is the pan that was on it. It is as "rear sump" as you can get and it only has one drain plug. I'm not aware of any other 425/472/500 oil pan that is rear sump. They were all either front sump or mid sump, besides the El Dorado.
     
  6. TheEngineer
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 239

    TheEngineer
    Member
    from New Mexico

    The rear sump off of a 68 to 76 Eldorado 500 is preferred. The sump is all the way at the rear of the engine. The next option is the mid sump off of any 77 to 79 Cadillac except a Seville. They're all 425s which are the same block as the 500. The Eldorado rear sump is rare and if you find one expect to pay $250-$300 for it. I found this 425 pan in the junk yard's mountain of engines for $75. Whatever you get it off of be sure to grab the oil sump.

    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1373769876.929514.jpg

    I haven't mounted the engine yet but I held the pan in place and it clears on my 48. The oil pump on the 425 points in a better direction too. I figured I'd wait to get it mounted to figure out the exhaust but Sanderson Headers have two styles. If neither of those work for you, you can modify a set of Big Block Chevy headers to fit.
     
  7. mechanic58
    Joined: Mar 21, 2010
    Posts: 681

    mechanic58
    Member

  8. YOLO
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 67

    YOLO
    Member

    One other question-------------------------> The front cross member was already cut. Do I need to relocate the oil filter or can I run a different, shorter filter?
     
  9. TheEngineer
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 239

    TheEngineer
    Member
    from New Mexico

    The special chassis oil pump on CAD500's page, the one they make it seem like they specially designed and probably want too much for, is the stock 425 oil pump.
     
  10. YOLO
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 67

    YOLO
    Member

    I love the HAMB. You guys are great. Thanks for the fast info. I will post pics of the oil pan, and oil filter tomorrow because I have a few kore questions.
     
  11. YOLO
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 67

    YOLO
    Member

    Please see the attached pictures. Can anyone tell me if my oil pan is from and Eldorado? Does this oil filter look like the right one? Also, were does the starter mount? Thank you.
    IMAG0225.jpg

    IMAG0226.jpg

    IMAG0232.jpg
     
  12. YOLO
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 67

    YOLO
    Member

    Picture of cut crossmember
    2013-07-14 08.47.07.jpg
     
  13. TheEngineer
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 239

    TheEngineer
    Member
    from New Mexico

    The oil pump looks like it has an attachment that would allow you to run lines to a remote oil filter. I haven't heard anything good about doing that but if it didn't work, I don't think they'd still be on the market. I was only going to do that as a last resort. The pump is the 472/500 style pump that sticks the oil filter out too far.

    It looks like you do have the rear sump Eldorado pan though its hard to see in this picture. It should clear all of your steering. The steering looks like the Mustang II rack and pinion set they sell at speedway. It appears to have made your space issues worse than the stock steering box that was mounted to the frame. You might still be able to use stock 472/500 exhaust manifolds that dump in the rear.

    The wholes in your frame look like they were cut for something else and won't help you much. On mine it looks like the clearance needs to be added to the rear side of the cross member and just on the oil filter side. Those will probably give you strength issues when you put all that torque on the frame. I would check to see what part of them help you and patch anything that doesn't.
     
  14. TheEngineer
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 239

    TheEngineer
    Member
    from New Mexico

    Then again, my 48 is a Pontiac that had space for a straight 8 so I've got room to move the engine back off of the cross member. Those wholes might be what you need. I would still do something to brace them and add back some strength.
     
  15. YOLO
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 67

    YOLO
    Member

    What about my starter? I dont see any obvious mounting locations.
     
  16. TheEngineer
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 239

    TheEngineer
    Member
    from New Mexico

    There's a lot of stuff in this post that I don't see in the thread but it showed up when I quoted it. I couldn't find a good picture of mine, I hope you don't mind me using your photo, Mechanic58. Anyway... In this picture you can see where the flywheel has a little blue paint on it. There are two threaded holes going up from the bottom where the bolts go through the starter. There is supposed to be a strap at the other end that bolts to the end of the starter and that bolt hole between the second and third freeze plugs. I don't remember having that strap, it may be a trip to the junk yard for me.
     
  17. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,911

    need louvers ?
    Member

    If that's a Mustang II rack you have some bigger problems than stuff fitting because those are front steer. I'm going to guess that it's not though. Judging from the steering coupler I'd say it a Jaguar XJ6 rack, and kind of hard to tell from all the odd cuts, but is there a chance that an entire Jag front end has been slid up into the stock cross member? One way or another, that rack is so far from being geometrically correct that that car will bumpsteer all over the place. Can you go back to a steering box? Are the stock mounts still there.

    Sorry, I don't know a bunch about Cad 500s, as the last one I did was about twenty years ago. I was fishing for some info on a possible swap I might be involved in, but I'm very concerned about that rack set up...
     
  18. TheEngineer
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 239

    TheEngineer
    Member
    from New Mexico

    I didn't mean to steer anybody wrong. It looks like the setup in a 55 Chevy I just bought. The shop owner that was restoring it said it was Mustang II. Doesn't mean that's really what it is I guess. Now I'll have to dig deeper.
     
  19. YOLO
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 67

    YOLO
    Member

    I need help with starter location. Thanks
     
  20. Dangerous Dan
    Joined: Jul 10, 2011
    Posts: 357

    Dangerous Dan
    Member
    from Graham Wa.

    I just happen to have a Eldo. rear sump pan and pickup tube. If interested pm me.
     

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  21. TheEngineer
    Joined: Jul 17, 2012
    Posts: 239

    TheEngineer
    Member
    from New Mexico

    The bolts go through the starter up into two threaded holes in the bottom of the rear of the block on the passenger side and there's a bracket that bolts to the non business end of the starter that goes to the block between the large freeze plugs. I'm sorry for rambling before I got to the point but I pointed it out in the post where I quoted the pic of the blue engine. It just hangs out there and the flywheel cover has a cutout for it.
     
  22. YOLO
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 67

    YOLO
    Member

  23. Ramblur
    Joined: Jun 15, 2005
    Posts: 2,101

    Ramblur
    Member

  24. mechanic58
    Joined: Mar 21, 2010
    Posts: 681

    mechanic58
    Member

    You are correct about the front starter support bracket - however I think about 99 of 100 of them that GM ever installed got discarded the first time the engine got starter service. lol I also think they were all the same - Buick, Olds, Pontiac, Chevrolet, GMC, Cadillac, etc. I probably have at least a half a dozen of them floating around in my junk bins.
     
  25. YOLO
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 67

    YOLO
    Member

    How do I know what year my 500ci is?
     

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