The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by bchctybob, Jun 6, 2020.
My head is backwards. Not the first time. Thanks for clarifying.
The lacquer thinner is "hotter" than enamel reducer, and will eat into the enamel, but not vice-versa ( as I remember)
I spoke with a tech at Duplicolor regarding the use of the paintshop lacquer products. He said that in my case ( painting an O/T 1999 car that has original single stage) That after a test, it should be no problem as the 20 year old paint on the car is fully hardened. Today I brought car into the garage. Took the spoiler off the trunk. This will be my test piece. I am alsp paint a 1917 roadster pickup so I guess I can post photos soon.
Let me say I have always heard the same as those above that it will not work. Time to really find out.
I noticed that the Duplicolor paint does not smell like the old lacquer which leads me to believe it has been reformulated to some degree. Maybe they toned down the “hot” to improve the compatibility with other coatings.
I have always heard enamel over lacquer but not the other way around too but I’ve never tested it.
I’m going to look at the other suppliers you guys have suggested but since I’m in California I’m sure it’s the same materials or the dreaded, “not sold or shipped to California”
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When I get to doing this, I will also be able to report how the TIP tool HLVP Turbine system works
I’ve got a new turbine system too but I did these Duplicolor tests with my conventional compressor and the world famous HF purple spray gun. I’ll be using the turbine for everything from now on.
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Enamel can go over Lacquer (IF the lacquer is sound, no lacquer check or delaminating)
Lacquer will be fine over DP-90 or similar catalyzed primers.
Lacquer MAY work fine on older factory enamels.
Newer cars are no longer enamel or lacquer, Chrysler started screwing with urethanes in the late 70s
The days of G.M. using Lacquer on front clips, and enamel on the rest ended long ago
Yeah, as far as I know there is no cure for lacquer checking other than sanding it all off. Luckily, old lacquer sands pretty easy.
I'm back with some good news. I took the spoiler off my O/T Miata as my test bed. This spoiler (21 years old ) was painted in base coat clear coat from the factory. My O/T is going to be my learning vehicle. After doing all the needed sanding to get the peeling clear coat off the piece. I made sure to leave as much of the original paint ( base color ) as possible.
I unpacked my Tip Tool Turbine unit..........didn't read the instructions so I shot the first 2 coats of Duplicolor primer .with the clear gun instead of the primer gun.. Different size nozzles. Since I do not know how to paint, the first 2 coats kind of looked like crap until it flowed out and dried. I left it sit overnight for 2 days to see if it crinkled . I got the primer gun out and shot another very heavy coat.......really heavy coat. I let it sit for another 2 days.
I went to the garage this morning, grabbed some 400 wet sandpaper and got rid of some orange peeling. There was no checking or crinkling from the the use of primer.
This picture was taken as soon as I wiped the sanding residue from the piece.
1. The Dupli color primer did exactly as Dupli color tech said it would. I still have not shot any color over the primer but I can't imagine getting a different reaction. I'm pretty sure at this point I will paint my O/T, my V8 Corvair and my 1917 roadster pickup.
2. The TIP TOOLS Turbine unit is very good and worth the money
So what have I learned. The new Dupli Color lacquer does not react like the old lacquer going over enamels and urethanes. The Turbine paint system is not bad. Like anything, I will have to learn how it all works.
The picture below was taken this morning, 6-17-2020. you can see that there is no reaction from the primer over a 20 year old urethane. Could there be a ;problem ? Maybe !!!!!! If it happens to me, you can bet your ass I will let you know
There is no reason it should react over a catalyzed product like urethane. Regular lacquers don't either.
I've used the Duplicolor product sold at Auto Zone on many projects. Haven't painted any cars though... Works great. The clear is good too.
Ask any 10 year old kid that has painted a model car with no primer using lacquer paint how hot it is...
I totally agree.
I understand that everyone has a different budget, but when it comes to paint, that's the absolute last place I would cut any corners and I would do whatever to open the vault for the best products available. Especially if it's a paint job that is supposed to look good, not merely turn a car one color. If I'm unhappy with a cam or a set of cylinder heads, I can spend an afternoon or weekend swapping those parts out and I'm no worse for wear. But if the paint comes out bad, or doesn't hold up, you're talking weeks to months of work to fix it. Not to mention that if you put the work in to make the body nice, better quality materials will only enhance that, whereas poor materials will often work in the opposite.
I can remember years ago before my car got a real paint job, I had a friend do a repair on the front fender where the car had been hit in a parking lot. I bought the cheapest paint I could get, which was a BC/CC set up from Napa, I think it was called "Shop Line". Anyway, it was fine. Cut and buffed nicely, and really looked good after the repair, and held up well for over a decade before the car got redone. I couldn't imagine the Duplicolor stuff being much less expensive, and certainly not so cheap as to justify the strength of the paint, being a lacquer vs a catalyzed clear.
Main justifications are:
1. NOT Tetra-Ethyl-Deadly like the catalyzed paints.
2. Dries in minutes as opposed to days for uncatalyzed enamels like Rustoleum.
3. Overspray is usually dry before it lands.
4. User-Friendly and easy to touch up or repair.
5. Clean-up can be as simple as some acetone on a rag.
57 joefomopar, that’s why I started this thread, to get some input as to the quality and hopefully the durability of the duplicolor paint shop products. Maybe even a chemical description and review from some of our lurking experts. Many of the paint threads on here seem to indicate that “you get what you pay for” isn’t necessarily an absolute when it comes to paint. There are reasonable alternatives to consider. I’m 70 years old and my hot rods are garaged and the roads here do not get corrosive crap spread on them in the winter.
Honestly, I find the cost of the top of the line paints to be absurd. At least at our local paint supplier here in California. As an amateur car painter I’d rather screw up $500-700 worth of materials than $3k worth. I’m not building a Ridler contender, just a fun street car.
Tomorrow I’ll be shooting primers on the dashboard and interior trim of my Morris Minor woody using the Duplicolor products. My test fenders turned out fine and no one posted any warnings based on their own personal experience so I’m going forward. I’ll be happy to keep everyone informed of the results.
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Show us a picture of your Woody . The Morris woody not yours.
I have read some of the comments here in this thread. I now question whether some of you should be on the HAMB or not. The original hot rods we cherish were , for the most part, painted with lacquer. Some were not but most were. So therefore Lacquer is HAMB type material. Base coat clear coat is not in the HAMB time fame. Yeah, you can use it but that does not make it right.
I thought about this and compared it to my old coupe. I could have run a Holley 4 barrel and probably got much better mileage and power.........but Stromberg is right for the HAMB. Disc brakes are far more safe than drum brakes but I would not have had the correct experience without the drum brakes. Everyone knows radial tires are the best for handling and ride but nothing can ever replace the look and style of bias ply tires.
To me, painting a car in lacquer is more about the experience and final outcome. It was never about buying cheap paint.
You do get what you pay for in paints as well you just have to decide where the cutoff is for you. Higher end paints cover better, generally have better colour match, have better UV protections etc. Some of the costs of high end paints is also their end use and the services that come with that in the collision industry. Shop expect high end service with high end prices so if you have a problem in a shop on Friday afternoon you expect a factory paint rep to be there that day to solve it so you can get the car out the door. Someone has to pay for that. It may be too late to bring this up but personally I used catalyzed primers with my lacquer because they will provide you with a higher quality base that is less likely to fail when things like chips inevitably happen. Lacquer primers are not going to do nearly the same job of preventing failure as an epoxy will. Inside the car not as big a deal.
I used to do lacquer exclusively back in the 70's, when I started building cars. Now, I have never used DUplicolor, but one concern I have with it, is that it comes already 'thinned'. Correct? If so, you are only buying about 1/3 paint and 2/3 thinner. And you'd have to buy a lot more material than in the old days, when you bought a gallon and it covered a car. Lacquer requires more coats than modern paints.
Another problem I see, is that back in the day, yo bought the paint, and you bought the thinner. You bought the thinner according to what temperature you were spraying. It was VERY important. If spraying when it was humid, you also might have to add retarder to slow the paint drying too quickly and 'blushing'. With Dulicolor's already thinned paint, how does this work? Can you spray only within a small temperature range? I used to like using a hotter temp thinner, so the lacquer would smooth out better. Lacquer dries by solvent evaporation, so thinner selection is usually very important!
K13, You're right and I have decided I do not want to pay all the embedded costs of the high end finishes. With three hot rods to paint I have to consider quality vs cost. As to using catalyzed primer. again you are right. I experimented a little with the primers and the Duplicolor top coat goes over my catalyzed primer just fine so although I usually try to stick to one complete line, I may use the primer I already have.
Chopolds, luckily I live in California where the air is somewhat mild and predictable. I'll have to be prepared and wait for the proper window of opportunity to spray the finish color but that shouldn't be a problem.
SouthCross, here's a few pictures. OlCurmudgeon built it years ago and it stalled, I bought it out of the HAMB classifieds and had it shipped to Ca. I got it running and driving, built a new exhaust system and tidied up a few things. He did a nice job, it has an Art Morrison front clip and a rectangular tube chassis, powered by a 215 Buick/TH350. I have a new Edelbrock intake and 390 Holley, also some nice O'brian Truckers valve covers for it. It will be emerald green metallic with vintage American 5 spokes on it. I'm hoping to make it my daily driver.
One of the first things I was shown about painting was draw a capital L and a capital E. The E will cover up the L but not vis a versa.
Lacquer can be covered with enamel or urethane... giving the lacquer better resistance to scratches, birds, sap, etc., than just lacquer... been doing it for decades with excellent results. The Paint Shop paints are pretty good, but still have to be put onto a properly prepared surface with a properly adjusted spray gun. I used air spray (Binks 7 gun) forever, and now have switched to H.V.L.P. gravity feed gun. After some practice, it works quite well. It's surprising how much more coverage you get! I'd say that for the price, it's good stuff.
I got the dashboard, upper door jambs and the cowl painted using Duplicolor Paint Shop jet black (dash), emerald green metallic and clear coat. We’ve been having some pretty hot weather lately so I tried to get to spraying early before it got too hot. Due to the heat and my inexperience it didn’t lay down as smooth as I would like but I applied plenty of clear to color sand and buff. Is there a lacquer retarder available? Again I was impressed with how well this metallic covered and laid down.
So now I’m getting anxious to finish the body work and shoot the whole car. But, I found a place to sandblast and epoxy prime my roadster chassis so I may divert and paint the chassis when it comes back.
Here’s how it looks right now and a look at the new dash inserts......
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I am not an expert but I don't think there is a retarder. Usually you pick the speed of reducer you want to use to thin it with to control work times but being it is pre reduced you don't really have that option. Maybe someone else has other info but that is how it was explained to me.
KI3 is correct, there is not a retarder for lacquer... There is a retarder for enamel, but they are obviously not compatible. You can get faster or slower drying lacquer thinners as he stated. Gun nozzle size, air cap & air pressure all play a part as well, but as with any gun, it mostly relies on the guy doing the shooting.
That being said, the results you're getting look really good and you are wise to bury it all in clear. Once it's wet sanded with 1000 or 1500 grit and buffed it's gonna look Bitchin'!
I thought just maybe someone had a clever trick for slowing down lacquer. Around here (California) I haven’t seen slower or faster lacquer thinners in years. Fact is, I’m pleasantly surprised to find any paint related products these days!
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I hear ya! Lay it on as heavy as you can without running and spray early in the day. (A couple Hail Marys wouldn't hurt either, Ha ha!)
LoL well, I use the duplicolor clear lacquer on guitars....have sprayed it over some pretty questionable stuff and it's held up so far...but that's a lot different than a paint job on a car that sees all sorts of hazards like birds, sap, yard clippings, saharan dust clouds, road tar, etc...the worst conditions the guitar in my avatar sees is rough handling of the case it stays in when not being played.
Example of questionable stuff mentioned above: RIT dye used as a stain on birch, hobby enamels airbrushed on, superglue to fill small imperfections...only hiccup was spraying over Krylon Fusion that wasn't completely cured.
The following pic isn't HAMB material at all, but it IS a reference point for what the dupli color stuff can/will do.
This is dupli color lacquer with some purple pearl I stole from my wife's girly fingernail supplies, over wallyworld craft enamel, over krylon primer surfacer over rustoleum sealer primer, on pine that I dried in my oven...
I imagine it'd work as good or better on a vehicle if done with the whole same-brand system? Been wanting to try an old school candy over metalflake with it...
There USED to be retarder for lacquer. Back in the day. Had to use it if you were spraying on a humid, or rainy day. You'd have to look for some old stock for it now, I'm sure.
Ahh yes, I remember the lacquer 'Blush' ....
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