The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'HA/GR' started by Ryan, Oct 8, 2008.
I'm not laughin.....Ok, Ok a little, but the question still is an issue
Cost, availability, safety, no real engineering differences beyond synchros.
Gears is pretty much gears.
I'm not sure why you guys are debating the rules. Anybody asked Ryan if he's happy with them as is?
Yep, no answer. The rules seem clear enough to me, but we need clarification on the 194 chevy 6 and if he considers them a '62 and later engine.
So, then everyone is limited to a 3 or 4 spd manual trans., right?
Basically. I guess someone could put in a five but then you'd just spend more time tossin'em. Some of the faster guys only use two as it is.
Actually you can run as many gears as you want as far as I'm concerned...every shift is just one more chance to miss one and it may give an advantage to the slower cars. Rocky and Lee seem to break theirs pretty regularly, but Lee can shift it really well when it ain't broken.
Other than the engines which most folks seem to feel should be older than '62 year model production the rest of the running gear is whatever ya want to run. If you don't mind the extra weight hang a six speed and one ton rear from a late model Dodge Cummins behind a proper vintage powerplant and you shouldn't ever break any parts behind the engine and clutch. Disk brakes too.
Whatever makes you grin...we are running the 1934 Dodge three speed top-loader behind the 218 inch flathead. May turn out to be a weak link, but we will be "period correct" except for the 8"ford rear axle with new brakes because I think stopping is important and like the idea of slightly stronger parts where the rubber will connect with the pavement.
Seems like the general consensus is that transmission (as long as it's manual (not automatic) and rear axle are open to whatever you wish to run.
I guess I'm still stuck on the trans thing a bit since slush boxes were intro'd in the 40's and later manual trans can have much better ratios and strength... However, I did talk to the guy with my old flat head six and there may be hope for me yet. The MOPAR 3 speed behind my 218 ran ok.... Ok, here's a angle to really get things going... MOPAR Fluid drive? 3 speed stick connected to a torque converter.... It's a manual trans!!! 1948-54 production. They called it Dodge Gyromatic and Plymouth Hy-Drive. Just threw that in to stir the pot....LOL
Trust me Bob...as an late friend in the military vehicle hobby used to say, "you can make it as complicated as you want". The only thing a "Hy-Drive" would add to the equation is weight and sluggish acceleration. Automatics have already been flogged to death in the HA/GR forum and though they were made in the '40s the idea is to be out there "banging gears", not letting the car do it for you. Nice stir but these cars are more of the "shaken rather than stirred" variety.
Im moving query and response over to this thread on the later Chevy 6. Just like to say Im not trying to game anyone and in retrospect I appreciate Dicks rational support for the later engines; however, this is not my first rodeo, so Im fully aware someone (not me) will deliberately push the envelope with the later engine. Whats it they say once the Camel has his nose under the tent. Nonetheless, my only dog in this fight is that I built a car with a free engine that has put me outside the friendly territory and some are concerned. This is a no drama project for me so Ill get rid of the free engine and the drama goes away. Therefore, the 292 comes out and the search for a suitable Falcon engine begins.
I might just keep the 292 though and slip it into a C/GD with some upgrades.
Skip, let's keep in touch as I'm planning a Falcon engine car as well. We may be able to feed off each others mistakes and triumphs and we are both So Cal.
Gentlemen...(hope I haven't offended anyone with that opener).
While I feel in part that Old6rodder has a valid point in accepting the 194" Chevy 6 as "Being manufactured before '62 as the model year is released in '61"...
My take on this whole basket of snakes reads like this.
Rule #12 states, "Flathead v8 or inlines, pre-1962 inline engines with stock cylinder blocks only. No exotic aftermarket inline six overhead valve heads (Wayne). No OHV V8s or V6s.
I haven't seen anyone so far who has said they found a 239" Ford Y-Block and even if it is an overhead valve V8, why can't they run it as it was manufactured in 1954, after all it's "only a 239". Folks argue that it's hard to find parts for the older engines...that speed parts aren't available, etc. etc. etc. and on and on. All this said, it just reinforces the concept...if it was easy, everyone would be doing it and there would be people complaining that it wasn't fun because there were so many cars out there they couldn't have much time racing. There are many cars out there with "owner built" intakes and exhausts have been built in the garage since the beginnings.
This class isn't all about the competition (sure, we all want to be the fastest and quickest, but realistically there are lots of easier classes to build for that fill that need). The class is designed to offer a "time machine", a chance to build and race in the 1950s and early 1960s and experience what it was like in the beginnings of our sport before corporate sponsorship and big rig transports were needed to run a car that might only make one pass before getting put on the trailer for the weekend.
There are many ways to build a drag race car, have fun with it and enjoy the sport. Our class is one of few of those ways to "return to the roots" and though it may not be perfect, stretching the rules won't help achieve perfection. Adding more rules such as limiting modifications on later model engines or placing limits on displacement will just take away from the innovative concepts and cause more pissed off people.
The current rules leave plenty of room for pushing the limits and innovation and don't need to be changed. Build to your ideas within those parameters and have fun. If you would like to build outside those limits, there are classes you can run, but accept the fact that you will have "left the room" so to speak.
A bit long winded, I'm afraid, but my two cents on the debate.
I hadn't intended to say more on this but this point (well stated, Tom) may well be the strongest argument against me that I've seen. The divisive possibilities of "stretching the rule" are real and not to be taken lightly. It could quite easily boomerang on us and kill such unity as we've accomplished before it has a chance to mature. Then the whole thing'd morph into something else or just die out, neither being helpful to what we want to do.
I fully understand it to be a risky move. Nor do I claim to know the outcome.
I assume that's why the idea's being discussed, and why it's this close to the hearts concerned.
I am speaking only as a decision maker for Eagle Field and this reply only applies to Eagle Field. With that said the 3rd generation Chevy six will not be considered a HAMB Dragster powerplant, I'm in an uncomfortable position but the decision had to be made. HAMB "STYLE" Dragsters withe these style engines are welcomed, encouraged, begged, pleaded and wanted to join the fun at Eagle Field but the Eagle Field HA/GR will go to a Rule complying (as I see it) car. Dick Mosely is a good friend and the only car this applies to at the moment, he is welcome to run with us but the HA/GR final round (again at Eagle Field) will not have a 3rd Generation Chevy 6 in it.
Skip has asked me in another thread about his build and I encourage him to build with what he has and come join the fun, the 3rd gen chevy's can run in C/GD (bring your 9" slicks if you like) and then I'm open to a TOP Eliminator award.
The small Ford six has changed very little over the years and "ANY" 144 to 200 will be allowed to participate at Eagle Field in the HA/GR Category, NO 250's! http://classicinlines.com/history.asp Our 170 has a dual bolt pattern and is a '68 with Ford choosing to change the bolt pattern one more time in later years.
I can't speak for ANRA but we are welcomed to run the "Open Wheel" category (although a 12.50 et limit has been talked about) and I'll leave any special HA/GR awards to my friend "OLD6".
I'll finish with these words...........BUILD BABY BUILD Rocky
Some clarification please. I am in the midst of building a car with a flathead v8. Want to know some specifics as far as what is acceptable and not.
Carbs: are the new speedway 97's and edelbrock 94's ok?
ignition: My distributor is well 64 years old and it saw better days: is a msd or mallory distributor ok? It seems it would be cheaper to get an aftermarket one as opposed to a NOS or good condition old one.
Automatic = not allowed
Manual = allowed.... steel aftermarket bellhousing only?
FYI, I am 31 and very excited to be building this and run heads up in a class I can afford! Awesome!
As I read the rules............
Yes on the carbs listed.
Your Distributor question is a good one and I'll let someone more qualified answer.
A 1/4 " thick steel plate shield extending forward to a point at least 1" ahead of the flywheel and 1" to the rear of the rotating components of the clutch and Pressure plate, completely surrounding the bellhousing 360 degrees and bolted to the frame is the minimum requirement until you run 11.49 an quicker.
We've been waiting for a V-8 Flattie, Rocky
THIS ONLY APPLIES TO EAGLE FIELD PARTICIPANTS
I want to clearify my post without changing it because I'm not backpedaling on it!
QUOTE "HAMB "STYLE" Dragsters withe these style engines (3rd generation) are welcomed, encouraged, begged, pleaded and wanted to join the fun at Eagle Field but the Eagle Field HA/GR (insert "AWARD") will go to a Rule complying (as I see it) car. Dick Mosely is a good friend and the only car this applies to at the moment, he is welcome to run with us but the HA/GR final round (again at Eagle Field) will not have a 3rd Generation Chevy 6 in it." ALL cars built in the "Spirit of the Bug", HAMB Style Dragsters are welcome to Come and Race with the HA/GR's at Eagle Field, HOWEVER the Trophy Round will not have a 3rd generation Chevy in it. This still leaves plenty of room for those who just want to come out and "Run for Fun" and allows those who followed the rules to compete for their chance at a prize. The event at Eagle Field is a "Grudge" style format and racers are allowed to come back and race round after round.
QUOTE "Skip has asked me in another thread about his build and I encourage him to build with what he has and come join the fun, the 3rd gen chevy's can run in C/GD (bring your 9" slicks if you like) and then I'm open to a TOP Eliminator award."
The C/GD dragster offer was to Racers with 3rd generation or non-complying engines who may want to compete for a throphy.
It is true the Slant Six can be a killer along with the big early Chevy and GMC six's, but I didn't write the rules and those who have built cars understood the options (me included) when we started. It just isn't fair to those who have built or started builds under the current rules to start allowing newer Chevy six's to race for a "Title". Those who are building with what they have are welcomed at Eagle Field as there is plenty of room to race for fun! I don't think anyone was afraid of Thingy's 194, it's the oppurtunity others see to build a 250 or even a 292 HA/GR. Rocky
Hey Rocky, want me to freshen up that target you hung on your back?
Sorry dude, I know what you've put yourself in for (I've done the same elsewhere) and I certainly sympathize, but I just couldn't resist the kick line.
You know how I love a joke.
Dick, I'm sorry you've decided to take it that way. Of course you've already been, and know you always will be, welcome (and wanted) to race with all of us in all the other classes we run (ANRA, Antique Nat's, Dragfest, etc).
You also know it's only the HAMBie runs that we're discussing having go by literal HA/GR rules.
No problem Dick, it was a tuff decision but I needed to speak up for those around here who are building HA/GR's to run heads up by the rules for Eagle Field. I only spoke for Eagle Field events but it sure got quiet. You know if enough "outlaw" HA/GR's came to Eagle Field we could have an Open class. O well just call me "Dick", Rocky
"Open Class"? How about HA/GRCC? Hambster Competition Coupe.......could start a whole new trend. Anyone got a Topolino or Bantam to donate to the cause? I'm digging it!
Can someone please post a copy of the Hot Rod rules for Eagle Field??
Eagle Field= pre 65 event, Hot Rod class at Eagle Field = Pre 48
If you were looking for HA/GR rules they are at the top of this thread.
Amazing how someone half way around the world can find things so fast.
Hope the earthquake didn't shake you too bad. Our thoughts and prayers go out to all our Kiwi brothers and sisters.
Rule #3. All cars must be equipped with a minimum four point roll bar of 1 3/4″ tubing with a main hoop higher than the drivers head and 2 support bars down to the frame towards the firewall. Tubing must meet NHRA minimum wall thickness for application.
OK, I haven't seen it addressed,
Is 1 1/2" schedule 40 pipe/.145 wall/1.9"od.. been acceptable for roll cage material???
It is larger in diameter and thicker than what is in the NHRA rule book, but it is pipe vs tubing....thus less expensive and fits the dies that we have here at work for shaping it.
Getting started on a HA/GR project and am needing some clarification on the above material useage.
Thanks for your input
The NHRA rulebook specifies either Chrome Moly or Mild Steel. Nothing additional is stated for roll bar and roll cage material for cars slower than 10.00 seconds.
BTW the HA/GR roll bar rule will not meet NHRA requirements. The design and tube placement in the driver compartment is specified in the rule book and is very specific for open bodied cars.
I recently bent some 1 1/4" pipe in a 1 5/8" die, 5.5" radius and it cracked. Guessing a larger radius is needed.
I AM GETTING PARTS TOGETHER FOR A HAMBCLASS RAIL. sorry for the caps lock... Question for you would be regarding my recently aquired engine. I found a 1961 through 1964 262 ford six cylinder from a truck. I cant verify exact age of the engine but I know it falls into the mentioned three year period. will this engine allow me to run in this class? I know it is not a "falcon" based motor but I think it should fit the year gap allowed... Please give me your input. Joel
If the series engine was manufactured for and installed in a '61 model vehicle, you're good to go up until engineering improvements were added. This would apply to the block and head seperately.
As an example I'm familiar with; the slant 6 was unchanged (to any real performance extent) in the block until they went to a cast crank, and in the head until they deleted the drool (spark plug) tubes.
*******Caution: Opinion Ahead*******
If I may I would like to bring up a point to ponder. I know there has been a debate over the 3rd generation Chevy 6 i.e. the 194 because of its availablity in the Chevy II early in the model year 1962. I have been considering a 153 four cylinder based engine in my recently aquired HA/GR and have looked at the rules several times and the conclusion that I have come to, based on the way the rule is "written" is that it would be OK. That is because the rules say:
12. Flathead v8 or inlines, pre-1962 inline engines with stock cylinder blocks only. No exotic aftermarket inline six overhead valve heads (Wayne). No OHV V8s or V6s. (If you are looking to run a straight 6 with exotic heads or a flathead with an o/h conversion, contact Ryan for some good news.)
So you could buy a Chevy II in September 1961 with the 153 meaning the engine would have been built somewhere around late June early July of 1961 making it a pre-1962 inline engine. My point is that the way the rule is written, it does not say "model year".
As for this being "in the Spirit" or not, let me remind everyone that back in the day racers of all types spent hours trying to creativly interpet the rules to gain what little advantage they could, so I say this is VERY in the Spirit.
Now mind you this is as much my OPINION as it is anything else, besides who's afraid of a little four cylinder anyhow ???!!!???
If you're going to run with the California HA/GR boys the engine (design) needs to be found in a 1961 or older model vehicle.
If you intend to run the HAMB drags at MoKan (once a year) as a HA/GR car, see the statement above.
If you have an engine that is a design newer than 1961, such as your ChevyII 4 banger, I believe you can run at the HAMB drags but not compete as a HA/GR car.
If 99% of your racing is going to be Test and Tune or local bracket racing, use whatever engine you desire,
That's my interpretation.
All this crap about being careful to get the right year engine is WHY bracket racing started. NO PROTESTS.. The cost of protests and the nit picky rules issues. Yep, you have brought back the old days...arguments and all...and all for one damn race?
Separate names with a comma.