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History Golden Submarine

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by sgtlethargic, Feb 8, 2015.

  1. Attached Files:

    ratrodzrcool and kiwijeff like this.
  2. Gotter love this thing, cause its so damn ugly.
    I'm sure TRJ did a feature on a clone some time back.
    Built by Dan Webb? Its a nicer version.
     
  3. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,476

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    The original Golden Submarine was a much better looking, if sinister, race car. The replica is a total PoS.

    https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608034891301848148&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

    https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608007231719604314&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

    There was no glass in the windows. They did not have safety glass in 1917. The windows had black wire mesh to deflect stones and dirt clods. The shape of the car kept out most dust at speed. Oldfield claimed he could smoke a cigar at 100 MPH there was so little wind inside the car.
     
    kiwijeff likes this.
  4. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 16,581

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You mean the one pictured at the top of this thread, not the Dan Webb car, right? Cause I think Webb's car was great.
     
    kiwijeff likes this.

  5. oldandkrusty
    Joined: Oct 8, 2002
    Posts: 2,119

    oldandkrusty
    Member

    Holy Crap, Rusty! Are you referring to the Dan Webb creation? If so, it is my recollection that Dan built his version as a tribute to Barney's Golden Submarine, not as an exact replica. As such, the workmanship is just spectacular and exhibits skills that most of would love to possess, but know we newver will. I hope you are not referring to it in such a manner.
     
  6. pwschuh
    Joined: Oct 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,384

    pwschuh
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    What you talkin' about Willis?
     
  7. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,182

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    I wouldn't call the 1st pictures a complete POS, but it does seem to lack that certain feel they hit with the original. That "tribute" looks more like a jelly bean than a submarine. Webbs? More like inspired by the original with little more than a theme in common. I saw it in raw form with no body at the Detroit Autorama some time ago, then again finished. An unreal "cabin speedster" with all the talent and process we possess today. A stunner, maybe more like a 1/2 scale this (shagged from an image search):
    [​IMG]
     
  8. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,080

    jimdillon
    Member

    Here are some pics I took of the late Buck Boudeman’s replica of the Miller Golden Submarine at the Miller Meet several years ago. Buck did a masterful job for sure with an engine that was similar to the original engine, and I believed he captured the true look of the car overall. Whether the original was as shiny etc is debatable I suppose. The pic that the OP posted is a car that was built for the Great American Race I believe and it is not a real replica but the owner probably had fun building it and driving it.

    The Dan Webb creation was really an amazing build but even Dan put on his show placard that it was a “Modern Interpretation”. It was a bit smaller and had a 4 cylinder Zetec Ford I believe. No matter what a pretty amazing build.

    The original Golden Sub was more than likely the first actual racecar (complete as opposed to just supplying engines) of the great Harry Miller. Miller’s creations and the Offys that followed won more races at Indy than any other manufacturer by a longshot. The Sub match raced all over the country in 1917 and packed the stands with locals to see the famous cars run. The car did pretty well on the dirt but not as well on the board tracks. Here is an original pic of the Sub in the pits during one of the match races of 1917 and another kicking up some dirt.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  9. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 7,546

    noboD
    Member

    Jim Dillon just wrote a good article which included info on the original submarine for the AACA magazine. HOLY CRAP JIM, we must have been typing at the same time!
     
  10. woodiewagon46
    Joined: Mar 14, 2013
    Posts: 1,798

    woodiewagon46
    Member
    from New York

    The Jan/Feb 2015 issue of the "Antique Automobile", the magazine put out by the A.A.C.A. has an article about the Miller motor and the "Golden Submarine".
     
  11. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,476

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    I meant the replica at the top looked like crap. I love the original Golden Submarine and an authentic replica is great.
     
  12. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 5,509

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I saw the post on "Yahoo" about the reproduction referenced by the original poster. I thought it was way off from what I remembered, but after contrasting the rear wheel to body relationship on that car and the originals and the good recreation, I think whoever owns the one mentioned by "Yahoo" should either do a lot of work to make it more correct, or maybe just scrap it. Probably the latter , since it seems to be getting a lot of press.
     
  13. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 3,436

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    Re: The tribute car haters

    I think if I were Dan Webb I'd be saying right now,
    "I don't care what you say about the car, just be sure you spell my name right."
     
    HotRodDrummer and flynbrian48 like this.
  14. So, what frame, running gear and grill shell?
     
  15. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,080

    jimdillon
    Member

    I am not sure that I can answer your questions on the car you posted. I had heard that it was built for the Great American Race but that was second hand information. If that was so, the standards as to the correctness of the original Golden Sub would not really be an issue. I had assumed the car you posted had a new set of frame rails with modern running gear. That is just a guess and I have never researched the car. I do not want to criticize the car and as I said earlier it probably was a fun build and driver for the owner.

    As to the original Sub I have researched it extensively and I believe much of what was built was done in house at Harry Miller’s shop. I read an article that may indicate the body MAY have been built at George Bentel’s shop (a wealthy patron and race car owner) but I have never been able to confirm if this is the case and have never gone out on a limb and claimed this as fact. Maybe at best, maybe not.

    As to the grill shell of the original I cannot be sure but for some reason Winters comes to mind. Not sure but sometimes the semi useless information floating around in my head is correct. The Sub that you posted may have tried to copy the original.

    When the Golden Sub was being built in the Miller shop it more than likely was built side by side to Barney Oldfield’s Grand Prix Delage that Oldfield campaigned at Indy in 1915. At this time Miller was installing one of his new overhead cam four cylinders in this Delage. There were also at least one and possibly several of Bob Burman’s cars, including his Peugeot. At this time the Europeans were a step or two ahead of the American’s with their overhead cam designs and the Peugeot and Delage were two of the best. I would assume that Miller fabricated the frame for the Sub and more than likely studied and copied some of the drivetrain components of the Peugeot and Delage. Miller though was quite innovative and his foreman was the extremely talented Fred Offenhauser. If there was anyone talented enough to build components for racecars you did not have to look much further than Offenhauser. As to the engine, in the article I wrote for Antique Automobile (AACA), I claim that Miller copied the 1914 Grand Prix Schneider (designed by Michaux) for the design of his first engine the 289 SOHC four, but that is another story. Miller supplied several of his engines for other racers and built two cars, The Sub and a sister car that was an open car, but probably identical running gear to the Sub.

    Also I hope this does not get into anything associated with “haters” or any such charge, especially with Dan Webb’s car. It is a fantastic car on its own and I have never heard anyone knock the car. It is a wonderful interpretation of the Sub.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
    turboroadster likes this.
  16. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,687

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    The Dan Webb Golden Submarine was on display in the Ford booth at the SEMA show several years ago. I had the opportunity to talk to Dan and look at the car. Quite frankly, it is an excellent example of craftsmanship and it was "advertised" as an interpretation of the original. I've been on the HAMB for almost ten years and still fail to understand why there is a segment here that continues to rag on successful builders.
     
  17. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,080

    jimdillon
    Member

    I would rather this thread not go south. Is there anyone on this thread ragging on Dan Webb's car? Am I missing something?
     
  18. pwschuh
    Joined: Oct 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,384

    pwschuh
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    No one here is ragging on Dan Webb's car. Rusty 'splained hisself in post #11 above.
     
  19. flynbrian48
    Joined: Mar 10, 2008
    Posts: 7,095

    flynbrian48
    Member

    Buck represented the engine in his Golden Sub replica to be the original, but he was known to take artistic license with the facts from time to time ;-). It's a stunning car, I was blown away when I saw it in his garage the first time. His Miller V16 remains unfinshed, but enough is done so that it could look like a car.
     
  20. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,080

    jimdillon
    Member

    Buck was a good guy and he did a masterful job on the Sub but some of the guys in the racing community took issue let's say with his claims. The engine he bought and installed in the Sub was owned by Dick Merritt (Ferrari collector) and from some sources that knew Dick, they said it was one of the aero examples that Miller built in the same period. I knew Buck as I own the remains of the 299 which match raced against the Sub during the summer of 1917, as well as the board tracks and Indy in 1919. He was somewhat careful with his assertions with me but once at Milwaukee when he didn't see me admiring his car in a small crowd, I heard him claim it was the original engine and pointed out a particular mark on the right side of the engine which you could see in original photos, or so he claimed. In spite of all of that, I have defended his work on more than one occasion as I truly admire what he accomplished.

    Were it not for his dedication to recreating the Sub I would not have had the treat of seeing and hearing and experiencing what a great piece the Sub was.
     
  21. 1oldtimer
    Joined: Aug 21, 2003
    Posts: 7,883

    1oldtimer
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I know this is an old post but I do have some more shots as it was at the Peterson a few years ago when I just happened to be there.
    golden sub-3a.jpg
    golden sub-4a.jpg
    golden sub-2a.jpg
    golden sub-7a.jpg
    golden sub-8a.jpg
     
    cretin likes this.
  22. 1oldtimer
    Joined: Aug 21, 2003
    Posts: 7,883

    1oldtimer
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  23. SteveLines
    Joined: Jun 15, 2007
    Posts: 124

    SteveLines
    Member
    from England

    Such a cool car...

    Almost other-world-ly.

    You can see why it caused such a sensation back in the teens period.
     
  24. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,257

    oj
    Member

    there's a lot on that I'd like to understand, how does the steering work? there must be a complex universal inside to make one side pull and push.
     
  25. ghornbostel
    Joined: Jan 3, 2012
    Posts: 131

    ghornbostel
    Member

    I'm not sure if he was on board at this time but Mr. Goossen shouldn't be left out of a very talented team.
     
  26. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,080

    jimdillon
    Member

    Goossen was without question very talented but he came on board in the autumn of 1919 after the Sub had been built (1916/1917) and raced (at least in the AAA top tier). The Sub retired from top tier racing at about the same time as Goossen was hired as the new 3 liter race cars were being built for the 1920 season.
     
  27. 50Fraud
    Joined: May 6, 2001
    Posts: 9,751

    50Fraud
    Member

    Yet another car that was surely influenced by the Sub, but clearly not a replica or tribute, was the Ralph Schenck streamliner built shortly before WW2:
    Kustomrama-quesnel-075-being-towed-in-rosemead.jpg
    Originally powered by a Chevy 4/Olds 3-port setup, it was re-engined with a flathead V8 by a subsequent owner after the war. Destroyed in a trailering accident in the '50s, it has been partially re-created by Terry Baldwin.
     
  28. SteveLines
    Joined: Jun 15, 2007
    Posts: 124

    SteveLines
    Member
    from England

    Love it! Would be great to see some more photos...
     
  29. 50Fraud
    Joined: May 6, 2001
    Posts: 9,751

    50Fraud
    Member

  30. SteveLines
    Joined: Jun 15, 2007
    Posts: 124

    SteveLines
    Member
    from England

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