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Gold shavings in oil

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by TheMonkey, Nov 3, 2012.

  1. I took a look of the pic u posted of the cam retainer and that's ugly. The wear pattern looks as if the spacer between the timing gear and the camshaft was of the wrong thickness or perhaps not even there. That retainer should never wear like that !! Something is Bad Wrong with the timing gear set and or installation !!! >>>>.
     
  2. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    I ordered a new timing set because of that. It's a $pecial kit with Torrington bearings on both sides, and sets cam play to tight tolerance.
     
  3. I guess what I'm trying to say here is the installation of the timing set was a huge problem as the retainer could never wear like that on it's own. Take great care in fitting the new parts !!! >>>>.
     
  4. Bigchuck
    Joined: Oct 23, 2007
    Posts: 1,132

    Bigchuck
    Member
    from Austin, TX

    Agreeded. Correct camshaft end play is of major importance witha roller cam.
     
  5. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    Here's what I have learned from this experience (did not Know before):

    Distributor shaft also turns oil pump so it has some resistance to it. Combined with helical meshing of the gear against the cam, there is a forward thrust on cam during acceleration. The original flat tapped cam lobes are canted so that pressure from lifters cause a backward thrust force on cam to offset the forward thrust from distributor.

    Swapping to roller cam (without canted lobes), there is nothing to stop forward thrust except thrust plate. I did not know about this, even if I did I'm not sure the roller thrust plate was available when I built the motor.

    Since then, Sims Performance has designed a dual sided roller thrust kit to exacting tolerance that I am swapping to.

    Oh... and the gold flakes? I found them. Interference between crank and gold coated windage tray. YES - I should have found this on installation, but the manufacturer (Tomahawk) should probably start with making sure it clears stock bottom end set up. :mad:

    [​IMG]
     
  6. i see where you are going with the thrust bearing theory and I hope that works out. I went back and looked at the pics of your bottom end again and those rods don't look stock >>>>.
     
  7. nhmikel
    Joined: Jun 29, 2012
    Posts: 308

    nhmikel
    Member
    from NH

    Don't they make bronze/brass valve guides?
     
  8. Glad you found the problems...hope you're on the road soon with the new parts.
     
  9. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,231

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Glad you found the problem was the windage tray.
    The fact that this interference wasn't found earlier could be a blessing in disguise, as that thrust plate problem could have been much more expensive to fix if it had gone a lot further before discovery.
     
  10. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    No the rods are not stock. But the windage tray mounts to main caps, and interfered with crank which are both stock.

    This type of stuff happens to me sometimes....
     
  11. norms30a
    Joined: Jul 17, 2008
    Posts: 538

    norms30a
    Member

    Glad you found the problems, this has been a very good thread for us guys that love to learn mechanical things, Thanks for doing it.
     
  12. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 9,556

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    Dont you think it is funny that those flakes would not stick to a magnet. ???
     
  13. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,105

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

    Those gold flakes may well be yellow zinc chromate plating that is commonly applied to steel parts (think class 8 hardware) and if just the plating was scrapped off the windage tray, would not be magnetic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2012
  14. burnout2614
    Joined: Sep 21, 2009
    Posts: 612

    burnout2614
    Member

    Sooooo it was those darn speed parts! Glad you figured it out. Dirty ol Dave is right on about that thrust plate issue. peace
     
  15. Glad you found the problem as stated earlier also.

    I've learned the hard way as well with many tier downs. For every new or modified part that goes in, it has to be checked.
     
  16. stuart in mn
    Joined: Nov 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,683

    stuart in mn
    Member

    Do you suppose that interference with the windage tray was also the cause of the weird intermittent noise it was making?
     
  17. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    Hey Stuart-

    I think it's doubtful.

    My 2 probables for the squeal:
    1) cam thrust plate
    2) gasket underneath throttle body spacer - it had a certain spot that had some slippery gas smelling wet spot so I'm thinking it didn't have a great seal. Sort of a type of whistle like when blowing through a blade of grass.

    I hope anyhow. If those aren't the squeal, I could just pull the motor out again right?
     
  18. charleyq
    Joined: May 24, 2012
    Posts: 17

    charleyq
    Member

    Did anyone along the rebuild do any kind of abrasive blasting? Particles will embed themselves into castings and later wash out under running conditions.
     
  19. scrappybunch
    Joined: Nov 16, 2011
    Posts: 281

    scrappybunch
    Member
    from nj

    Got her barkin yet?
     
  20. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    Yip. All is good. What a big job that was.

    Just in time for winter. Grrrr. Brrrr.
     
  21. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    Forgot to mention - the squeal is still there :confused: :mad: :confused:
     
  22. The center main in a Pontiac is the thrust bearing and I have had alignment issues with these. Even with the aftermarket main caps that are dowel pinned. And this has been known to cause the squealing sound >>>>.
     
  23. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    I pulled each cap for inspection. They looked great, including #4 crank thrust.

    Everything was happy except the cam thrust plate which I replaced with the roller kit.
     
  24. Dane
    Joined: May 6, 2010
    Posts: 1,353

    Dane
    Member
    from Soquel, CA

    Major bummer! If you can get it to squeal in neutral try a stethascope...
     
  25. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    It doesn't do it in neutral. Needs a load. Could be in tranny or behind?

    I was thinking about putting it on chassis dyno and using stethascope or hearing tube or?
     
  26. scrappybunch
    Joined: Nov 16, 2011
    Posts: 281

    scrappybunch
    Member
    from nj

  27. scrappybunch
    Joined: Nov 16, 2011
    Posts: 281

    scrappybunch
    Member
    from nj

    Under load.. maybe the drive shaft is too long, under load its bottoming out the front yoke into the trans. Just a thought.
     
  28. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    Interesting thought on driveshaft, but it's clearanced pretty well in trans. It doesn't even plunge much since the shaft is so long and angles are mild.

    Chassis ears are interesting. Those would probably find it.
     

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