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Gold shavings in oil

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by TheMonkey, Nov 3, 2012.

  1. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    Pulled rocker covers everything looks as it should on top of heads. Nothing rubbing, never made any valve noise - so this makes sense.

    I'll pull timing gears off today.

    Joe - does your dad know much about pontiacs? Lol... Thanks for your ideas on this. My copy of your dads book is well worn.

    Answers to couple of your comments: squeal happens without either belt installed. Some thrust plates are bronze on after market timing kits, can't recall mine but I think mine was not.

    Distributor is MSD. they might have bronze? Sounds like the Ford referenced above did. But I pulled distributor and looks good although I didn't pull shaft to examine upper bushing. There is no play in it. Several people with roller cam use a bronze distributor gear, mine is composite.

    Yes, I pried hard on crank to plunge back, used clutch to plunge fwd.

    Yes, I have windage tray. It interfered at first on dyno but reshaped it in dyno shop to clear. I had oil pan off after about 800 miles to fix oil leak, and windage tray looked good.

    Motor has been driven spirited for 2100 miles, not just dyno. No shavings when pan pulled at 800.
     
  2. Bigchuck
    Joined: Oct 23, 2007
    Posts: 1,132

    Bigchuck
    Member
    from Austin, TX

    Strain the oil through a filter (rag/paint strainer) to get capture some of that stuff to try and see if what it is. It seems like it has to be some sort of bearing material if it is non-ferrous.
     
  3. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

  4. AG F/C
    Joined: Oct 20, 2009
    Posts: 364

    AG F/C
    Member

    Not to familiar with the Pontiac's specifically but are the rockers shaft mounted? Just saying that they may be bushed with bronze..
    Never mind a quick Google answered my question.....
     
  5. JC Sparks
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 685

    JC Sparks
    Member
    from Ohio

    That is the first thing that came to mind. JC
     
  6. redroaddog
    Joined: Apr 1, 2011
    Posts: 328

    redroaddog
    Member

    they send oil in truck fleets to see whats in it maybe that would work for you. might tell you what kind of material your dealing with...Dave:cool:
     
  7. Agreed !! Problems with engines most generally don't heal themselves !! Tear it down and find out what the squealing is and if you have a good engine builder he will be able to tell you every piece of bronze that he installed in your engine >>>>.
     
  8. deuce 1932
    Joined: Jan 25, 2012
    Posts: 7

    deuce 1932
    Member
    from Motown WV

    This oil contamination is going thru the complete oil system mains, rods and cam bearings. What damage is being done? Dismantle and find the problem. The particles are hanging everywhere in the block, oil gallery, and all the rough castings.
     
  9. blue68deville
    Joined: Oct 11, 2011
    Posts: 36

    blue68deville
    Member

    Don't have anything to add on the sparklies, but I once had a fresh built 454 that squealed louder than your sound clip.
    Sounded angry and expensive, like a brake rotor on the lathe without a silencing band.
    Ended up being an exhaust leak at the donut. Weird for sure, worth a look.
     
  10. I wll bet the source of the squeal is also the source of the particles.
    Something is rubbing somewhere that it should not.
    Pull the engine and find the problem before it gets bad.
    I assume the engine didn't make a squeal noise on the dyno?
    That sounds like a problem waiting to go really bad.
    Just my opinion.

    Tommy
     
  11. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 4,805

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    He did say that he didn't find any particles in the oil filter pleats, so this metal must be heavy enough to lay in the pan and not get sucked into the oil pump.

    Maybe it really is gold?:rolleyes:
     
  12. GOATROPER02
    Joined: Mar 22, 2006
    Posts: 2,057

    GOATROPER02
    Member
    from OHIO

    Agree .....Always cheaper to fix while it's still running.... In other words leave your builder something to fix.
     
  13. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    I'm not so sure about that. It would need to get through pump screen, and past the filter or through bypass pressure relief to get into pressure side of oil system.

    video from dyno: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHnU2q0aSo8

    I pulled timing gear off. Here is picture of the thrust plate. Anyone want to bet that is the source of the squeal? Groove is probably .005 deep (easily catch fingernail on it, but i don't have equip to measure. Still not source of shavings though. I'll probably pull rest of motor out tomorrow. Just what I needed... good thing I really really love my car.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,304

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  15. Mjrdude
    Joined: Feb 17, 2012
    Posts: 19

    Mjrdude
    Member

    If you end up pulling the pan, take a coffee filter and wipe up all the debris in it, use a little brake kleen to wash the oil off while holding it cupped in your hand. The material will give you a good idea what to look for thats failing. The oil film can discolor the debris enough to look gold or brass when in fact could be a piston skirt galling and losing metal.
    The thrust plate either has excessive thrust or lack of lube condition to be that worn, that fast. Lots of things can cause it.
     
  16. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 17,950

    Deuces
    Member
    from Michigan

    Then why do they even make and sell the bronze distributor gears if they are known to go bad???...:mad::mad:

    Spend the extra 30 er 40 bucks and buy a steel gear to go with a roller cam!!
    I have the steel gear in my 352 Windsor with a roller.... No problems!..:)
     
  17. barstowpo
    Joined: Jun 27, 2012
    Posts: 232

    barstowpo
    Member

    I don't know much about Pontiacs despite driving one daily. Have you checked the rear cam bore plug? On the FE Fords I have, they have to be put in so they look backwards (compared to freeze plugs) or they will bind on the cam and push it forward. They are also thinner than a standard plug. I don't know if yours are like that or not.
     
  18. Joe H
    Joined: Feb 10, 2008
    Posts: 792

    Joe H
    Member

    Distributor gear looks good. Check under the rocker arms to be sure there is clearance at the springs. I had one where the roller rockers hit the valve covers, it was the outer four at each corner. The local shop lobbed the corners off for clearance. The Eagle cranks had really bad thrust surface on the crank which ate the bearings, I never heard of any making noise though. Are the push rod holes in the head elongated so you can run higher ratio rocker arms? I have seen the hit and wear a little, but nothing like this.

    Looks like you are going to have to go deeper into it, it will be cheaper now then when it quits.

    Joe
     
  19. Joe H
    Joined: Feb 10, 2008
    Posts: 792

    Joe H
    Member

    Thats a good point about the rear cam plug in the block. If its brass and in to deep, it very well could be rubbing the cam forcing it into the thrust plate. The plate has some wear, but not terrible. Roller cams move a lot, so who knows, it might be normal.

    As far a steel gears on the distributor, plastic or bronze only on roller cams, they have way to much harmonics for a steel gear to survive. The more radical the cam, the faster they wear the gears.

    Joe
     
  20. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    I've got everything ready to pull motor out in the morning. Just driveshaft and exhaust still connected now.

    When I removed timing gear, I tapped end of cam bolt with small ball peen into block to check clearance against rear plug. I plunged about 1/16" of an inch, so I don't think it was rubbing against plug unless when I tapped it I pushed plug out a bit.

    There is a guy that makes a timing kit with needle bearings on both sides of thrust plate.
     
  21. BLAINE 816
    Joined: Jan 6, 2007
    Posts: 243

    BLAINE 816
    Member

    I second the use of Blackstone labs.A lot of information for $25.00. I have kits send me your address I will send you one. Blaine
     
  22. grm61
    Joined: Oct 19, 2009
    Posts: 179

    grm61
    Member
    from Washington

    I had a 396 with a rod bearing going...Thats what the oil looked like before I pulled it.

    Good luck
     
  23. Looking at the pic of the thrust plate,,,looks like it is worn more heavy on one edge. Shouldn't the wear be kind of uniform all the way around. looks like it is deep on the edge.

    But,,,my opinion is,,there should not be any wear on it,,considering the low mileage since the build up.
    That is just something to consider.

    Tommy
     
  24. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    Under my 4150 style throttle body, I have a spacer. The gasket under it seemed a bit flimsy, makes me wonder if there was a vac leak there causing squeal.

    Should have an answer before too long about condition of motor.

    [​IMG]
     
  25. yellow dog
    Joined: Oct 15, 2011
    Posts: 402

    yellow dog
    Member
    from san diego

    Picture looks like Edelbrock heads with manganese bronze valve guides......probably the biggest mass of bronze in the whole engine. I have had similar flecks in past on new guides.
     
  26. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    It's a trap.

    Wouldn't the screen be full of crap? Wouldn't a bunch of little flakes be jammed in all the nooks and crannies?

    [​IMG]

    Every cyl is like this all around:

    [​IMG]

    No flakes found in pan:

    [​IMG]

    Pics show some coolant in oil from pulling with timing cover off. From what I can tell, all the journal and rod bearings look and sound buttery.

    A very experienced senior Pontiac guy sent a msg suggesting that they might not be flakes at all. Asked if I rubbed them between my fingers. He had seen coagulation of some leftover chem in his drain bucket once look just like flakes but poof - clouded away when rubbed between fingers. Guess what... I never rubbed them between my fingers. If this is the case, it fooled my buddy, the machinist, and his partner too, I brought the bucket and oil filter into his shop.

    Trying to figure out how I should feel right now.
     
  27. TheMonkey
    Joined: May 11, 2008
    Posts: 310

    TheMonkey
    Member
    from MN

    Would that end up in oil or blown out exhaust?
     
  28. Commish
    Joined: Jan 9, 2010
    Posts: 379

    Commish
    Member
    from NW Ok

    Depends on where they flecked off from, if from the top of the guide they could very easily have made their way to the pan,less likely if from the bottom.
     
  29. Johnny Wishbone
    Joined: Aug 10, 2009
    Posts: 314

    Johnny Wishbone
    Member

    Was gold anti seize used on anything? We had an engine that had gold anti seize used during assembly and it made the oil look funny and left gold looking flakes in the oil. Had us pretty freaked out for a while and it took a lot of running and several oil changes to get the gold coloration out of the oil.

    JW
     
  30. petritl
    Joined: Jul 31, 2006
    Posts: 950

    petritl
    Member
    from Marion, TX

    Your local Caterpillar dealer will sell a oil sample kit for around $13 which includes the lab fees. The oil sample (SOS) will tell you what materials are in the oil. These samples work well to tell what is failing but work best if you do one at every oil change to show a trend. Then a failure can be noticed before it gets real expensive.
     

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