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Going Kustom!! 1953 Packard

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by ShortyLaVen, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. ShortyLaVen
    Joined: Oct 13, 2008
    Posts: 680

    ShortyLaVen
    Member

    Not Wyotechs teaching, I've been using silicon bronze since high school. In all actuality, even brass and bronze rods can be painted, they just have to be really really well prepped. Factories used bronze to bond seems since forever, and if you've ever seen Gene Winfield or any of the other greats chop a top, they braze the A pillars. Are you TIGing it, or using a torch and flux? If so, are you sure the flux is completly cleaned and neutralized? Are you prepping correctly and giving it at least a good 80grit tooth to bite into(I actually used 50 here, just on the brazed area)? And finally, what materials are you applying to it, and is your surface temp too cold? I mean no offence, but if your having any kind of adhesion problems its not due to the silicon bronze.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  2. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    I've chopped a car with Winfield in one of his metal classes and I can say unequivocally that he does not braze anything. Not A pillars, not roof sections... nothing. He gas welds seams and any spot that is going to need to be hammered on. The torch welding/hammer welding process is often stronger than the MIG, which is a colder, more brittle weld. While the gas welding process creates more deformation, the higher heat creates less of a heat affected zone as it gradually cools. A similar result could be achieved using a TIG setup in lieu of an acetylene torch. But make no mistake about it, by brazing panels and introducing a foreign metal like brass, with a lower melting point and much different heat transfer qualities than steel, to act as a glue to hold panels together, you're asking for trouble down the line.
     
  3. ShortyLaVen
    Joined: Oct 13, 2008
    Posts: 680

    ShortyLaVen
    Member



    Interesting, I've never taken one of his classes so I can't argue there. I have a video he put out where he brazed them, maybe its just preference of a specific build? Either way, there are a lot of builders that will do an entire chop in bronze (which I admit seems questionable), and virtually ALL major car manufacturers used brazing in many areas from the factory up into the 70s, and most of the problem areas are in places where there is either no water drainage or no corrosion protection on the back side, not usually in a brazed area. Brazing is in no way "asking for trouble". It gets a bad rap for the same reason polyester filler does; people are too lazy to prep and finish properly and when they get bad results they blame it on the material instead of acknowledging that they did it wrong. Something that comes to mind are people that "metal finish" a car, claim to use "no bondo", and then hammer on 30+ coats of primer surfacer.

    As an example, here is a mailbox I built as part of my grade. The rear seem is TIG welded, the front seem around the door opening is TIG brazed. Primer surfacer, PPG envirobase black (waterborne), and clear. No bubbling, no popping, no peeling, no cracking, because is was prepped right.
    [​IMG]
    I wish I had pictures, but I've also brazed on tank bungs on some custom tanks I built for my motorized bicycles in high school, as do a lot of other builders. On that note, I lot of bicycle frames are also brazed together....
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  4. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    Fory, I'm not saying that brazing isn't acceptable in all circumstances, but it's important to remember that build protocol has changed significantly over the years and what is considered acceptable practice in the 50s and 60s is no longer passable. Looking at the restoration threads of cars built by many of the greats, you see big slide hammer holes and entire panels drenched in lead! Not OK! Now we have better standards. I've brazed bungs onto tanks, used bronze to seal up some pin holes and stuff like that. But when it comes to finish work, the best practice is to use metals that are most similar. Your mailbox looks great, but leave that thing outside for a year and see which seam comes apart first. It has little to do with surface prep, and more to do with the properties of the substrate. Steel has relatively poor heat transfer qualities, whereas brass has very good heat transfer qualities (they make radiators out of brass for a reason). For example, if you leave that mailbox out for days/months/years at a time, from the cool of the morning to the afternoon in the hot sun, it will absorb heat. But the brass will heat up quicker that the steel of the box. Conversely, as night falls, the brass will cool more quickly than the steel. After many iterations of these discrepancies in heating and cooling, eventually it will separate. Especially when you factor in moisture and vibration of the vehicle in use. The same concept applies to use of body filler, the plastic/polyester has different properties than the steel. However, if small amounts are used, the difference can be negligible.

    The purpose of gas or TIG welding seams like Winfield does is so that the seam can be manipulated by hammer dolly later in an effort to metal finish the seam as close as possible before filler. Because MIG welds are colder and more brittle, they are also harder. Therefore, instead of moving with hammering, they crack. By gas welding the panel, it will get much hotter, and spread the heat over a larger area. This, like MIG welding, will shrink the weld. But while it is still hot and pliable, the hammering will stretch the metal to put it back in the position it was before, or where it should be. As it cools and normalizes, it will hold that position. There is more to it, but that's it in a nutshell.
     
  5. cederholm
    Joined: May 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,748

    cederholm
    Member

    Car looks great!
     
  6. ShortyLaVen
    Joined: Oct 13, 2008
    Posts: 680

    ShortyLaVen
    Member

    57joe, I appreciate your input. I don't know everything, but in this instance I do in fact know what I'm doing. I would love to discuss the science behind it over a burger sometime, however I feel this thread is really getting off topic.
     
  7. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,245

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Not OT at all. I picked up a spray gun at 11yrs old, painted my 1st complete at 14, at 56 I'm still at it with an enviable client list and equally enviable award count that they've all rec'd over the decades in this craft. Standard torch braze can be mullered up as well as any form of fusion. I know how to prep near anything to hold a finish and finally etched what was done to this O/T car. For the record, I didn't put it on there. It would NEVER occur to me to try it. Your work is looking good, the car's kool, search me and you'll find I'm a Packard fan and then some. However, there's only one thing worse than doing some of this work, and that's doing it over. Is your bronze a guaranteed failure? No, but smaller wire, less heat (you're "driving" the tig pedal), you'll possibly even get no-fill metal finished repairs. Think you feel good about the bronze? Nothing more rewarding than a welded panel with no more than 1 extra coat of primer to make it perfect.

    You're partially right, don't want to derail a bitchin project post, just trying to assist a newcomer since I just might have a thing or 2 to offer. Keep the faith bro. Kustoms rule...
     
  8. ShortyLaVen
    Joined: Oct 13, 2008
    Posts: 680

    ShortyLaVen
    Member

    Thanks for the compliment!! I'm really happy with how it came out, it really changes the whole look of the car.. taking it to midnight mass tonight! Thats really awesome you did your first complete at 14!! painting this car black was my first when I was 14 too:D It seems like a magical age, theres a lot of guys I know that have had milestones when they were 14...

    You're right about the metal finishing, it is indeed always better. But as far as the brazing goes I am 100% confident that it will hold up for the long haul, along with the filler work. I learned from my grandpa when I was a kid that everything has its place, and with good reason. I chose to braze because its the lowest risk of warpage, and because of the flange that the bucket bolts to there is no access to the back side to work out any low spots. But that's the neat thing about this profession, everybody does something a little bit different, and you will always learn something from everybody you meet. That's why I love doing this so much!! In contrast, my buddy that is replacing quarters on his '69 Mach 1 found a LOT of bad brazing, horrible welding, and ever worse filler work. His dad wrecked it when it was brand new and had it repaired AT A SHOP!! The steel under the filler actually rotted away to nothing and the entire sail panel was just bondo. I think its hacks like the person who repaired this car in the 70s that give these things a bad name. As long as you follow the directions and maintain a surgical-clean work area, there is no reason for failure. And that goes for most anything, even cake.
     
  9. ShortyLaVen
    Joined: Oct 13, 2008
    Posts: 680

    ShortyLaVen
    Member

    Here's some better pics...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Hot Rod Chris
    Joined: Mar 31, 2011
    Posts: 464

    Hot Rod Chris
    Member

  11. Finnrodder
    Joined: Oct 18, 2009
    Posts: 2,970

    Finnrodder
    Member
    from Finland

    Looks good,man!

    Not trying to hijack your thread,but here is something for the inspiration.
    One guy i know from the neighbor town build this yrs ago:

    [​IMG]

    Gene Whinfield was visiting in here and that Packard was his personal pick of the show.That happend in 2005,so the time flies.Feels like it happend just yesterday.Keep it up!
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  12. chrisntx
    Joined: Jan 20, 2006
    Posts: 1,799

    chrisntx
    Member
    from Texas .

    Fory, its great that you are a custom guy and what you have done looks great! Keep it up but never never apply brass to car body
     
  13. ShortyLaVen
    Joined: Oct 13, 2008
    Posts: 680

    ShortyLaVen
    Member

    Finnrodder, that car is awesome!!! I'd love to see more pics if you have them..
     
  14. ShortyLaVen
    Joined: Oct 13, 2008
    Posts: 680

    ShortyLaVen
    Member

    chrisntx- thanks for the complement!!! I'm very happy with how it came out. And don't worry, I would never apply brass to a car...
     
  15. ShortyLaVen
    Joined: Oct 13, 2008
    Posts: 680

    ShortyLaVen
    Member

    OK just to put an end to the "brazing" debate, a friend of mine sent me this link. it explains the differences between BRASS and BRONZE very well, probably better than I can. For those interested, this is actually a pretty good read. Plus it was written by Ron Covell, and he knows how to make metal his b**ch...
    http://metalshapers.org/101/covell/covell-silbronze.shtml
     
  16. Finnrodder
    Joined: Oct 18, 2009
    Posts: 2,970

    Finnrodder
    Member
    from Finland

    Sorry thats all i got,which is a kind of strange.I have check out if i find more pics of it from the web.
    Btw.It was a 4 door aswell,before it was kustomized..
     
  17. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,245

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thanks for the link. I understand the theory I reckon, however, the folks who did the stuff on this O/T street rod used it in places I'd never consider. There must have also been some form of contamination on a few places that required some fill as it wanted to peel right off. Being in this as long as I have I've learned to use "soft" wire like S2, low temps, and a lot of cooling and moving around to keep things straight. Even with the dreaded MIG version, I've learned that a knowledgeable helper with a hammer and dolly along with EZgrind wire nets awesome results with virtually no fill. Not everyone has a TIG and fistful of bronze rod so alternatives are a good thing to share o a topic like this.

    Keep up the good work. It's a Packard, it deserves it.
     
  18. ShortyLaVen
    Joined: Oct 13, 2008
    Posts: 680

    ShortyLaVen
    Member

    Totally!!! There was a RAD car at Midnight Mass last night, shoebox Ford not sure of the year... It had '57 Olds headlights, a really killer grill surround, and a bunch of other mods that looked coompletely factory. The seam where the fenders were grafted on was virtually invisible!! I didn't want to get my grubby mitts all over the nice bare metal, but I can imagine it felt as good as it looked. I haven't tried the S-2, I'll have to pick some up. I've always just used good ol' S-6..
     

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