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German Flathead V8 identification...

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by The Rocketeer, Jun 27, 2013.

  1. The Rocketeer
    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 290

    The Rocketeer
    Member

    Hey folks, I´m about to buy this engine and I was curious what the
    L5411 means on the rear bell housing. It´s apparently a 21 stud from a 1937 german produced Ford V8 car. Besides this number/letter combination I can´t find any differences between the US and this german block. The same raised intake manifold area, waterpumps etc...Any ideas are welcome.
    Chris
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  2. The Rocketeer
    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 290

    The Rocketeer
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    No replies at all ? Where are the Flathead Gurus when you need them ?:)
     
  3. woodypecker
    Joined: Jan 23, 2011
    Posts: 300

    woodypecker
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    If you do not get an answer try the fordbarn lots of flathead experts.
     
  4. The Rocketeer
    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 290

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  5. ventilo
    Joined: Aug 25, 2009
    Posts: 247

    ventilo
    Member

    One of the main differences you'll see between a 37 Cologne and an American block is the fact that the US already switched over to insert bearings for 1937 when Cologne was still using babbit.
     
  6. flathead4d
    Joined: Oct 24, 2005
    Posts: 884

    flathead4d
    Member

    The fordbarn.com web site. All years of flathead stuff there.
     
  7. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Ford Germany used the '37 type, Model 77 or 79 I think, up into WWII on trucks.
    They had three big truck lines, the '32 BB made from '32 up to about 1940, the '37 type big truck, and the later big truck with 1940-46 type cab. The later big truck was commonly a '42 239, a Model 29 T, but I do not know if it was introduced earlier with a 99 engine. At any rate, the 29 was the commonest rig in WWII and stayed on after the war.
    I would assume the '37 went out of production whenever the 1940 type came along but I do not know that. At any rate, many '32 and '37 types were in use during the war.
    There is some limited production history, along with MANY photos, of all of these trucks in the "Ford at War" volume, pretty easy to get. I think both '37 and the late trucks were made in a lot of versions including Maultier half tracks...the late truck also evolved increasingly cruder fenders and bodies with wartime shortages.
    According to the book, apparently ALL Ford V8's were conscripted into the war, with most passenger cars having their bodies cut off for a huge variety of light truck/specialist truck conversions...
     
  8. Snot Rocket
    Joined: Sep 8, 2012
    Posts: 122

    Snot Rocket
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    The number may be a foundry or pattern number for quality control. Multiple sources for parts often use cast numbers or logos to keep track of where the stuff came from. Kind of like the snowflake on Winters Foundry castings for GM.
     
  9. The Rocketeer
    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 290

    The Rocketeer
    Member

    Ventilo, Bruce and Snot, Thanks a million ! I will try to get my hands on that book. It´s not a truck engine, that´s for sure. Normally there´s the EB stamping on the bell housing on all german blocks, that´s why I was curious aboiut the US type stamping.
    Again , I appreciate your help.
     
  10. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Couple of things...your engine has the extra circular boss on the rear by oil port that US and Canadian engines picked up during WWII (1942 type engines, but I think only ones made after end of civilian production) and kept until the end of the flathead. This boss located and supported the extra oil connection for wartime trucks with full flow filters and Bren carriers with full flow coolers. Was there a German equivalent?? Germany obtained many British Fords early in the desert war, and of course much British armor lived in Germany after the war.
    British '37's were made right through the war for British built carriers and trucks...I do not know if they got that boss, but I think carrier use might have required it.
    US engine did not get that funny pad for the intake until '41 on 24 studs...I've never had a US '37 but don't think they had this. That and the oil boss suggest to me a '37 made long after 1937 using some tooling from later blocks.
    Lots of numbers on bell like that on USA engines are in my opinion found on replacement blocks made after production use ended, like 59A's built in the 1950's for parts sales.
    Could your engine be a stray USA replacement engine?
     
  11. ventilo
    Joined: Aug 25, 2009
    Posts: 247

    ventilo
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    This engine is offered on eBay Germany. Eisenwerke Brühl "EB" did not cast blocks for Ford back in 37, they were done in-house here in Cologne with machinery imported from US. I recently discovered some film material from the flathead V8 production in our Niehl plant, dated from pre-war 'til the end in '61.
    We didn't use an oil filter back in '37. I've got a genuine '37 Cologne block as well - matching numbers to my 4dr Ambi-Budd bodied sedan.

    And not ALL V8s were confiscated during WW II- My one managed to survive at a local butcher shop in the Eifel mountains close to Cologne. The butcher was allowed to keep his car to ensure the meat production won't get disrupted, but he didn't get any petrol ration. His V8 was converted to run on "Treibgas", which was something similar to CNG. Two large bottles were mounted sideways on the back. The car was family owner until I ran across it....
     
  12. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Wow! But how about the little circular boss on that block...first photo, half way between the standard oil plug and the numbers...and the raised manifold? Did original German 21 stud blocks have those?
    That circle is where you drill an extra hole to convert the engine from no or bypass filter to full flow...on USA and Canadian engines, which were all 24 stud by the time, that circle appeared on wartime versions of the '42 block because of all the heavy duty engines that had coolers or full flow filters...
    I have no idea about early German G29's or British military 21 studs, but the British 21 studs went into Bren carriers and so might have had the coolers to help a little engine running full blast in an armored box.
    If that engine were USA I would suspect it to be a 1940's replacement cast with some cores from the 24 stud blocks incorporating the 2 odd features.
     
  13. Mr 42
    Joined: Mar 27, 2003
    Posts: 1,208

    Mr 42
    Member
    from Sweden

    Found this a couple of Days ago.

    Its for the G28T

    The production date is stamped on left side of block, just behind starter. Example F551, where F is the day in the month, counting from 1=A, 5 is the month, counting from Janaury=1, and 51 is the year.

    Here is the link
    http://www.dannerrs.com/39432923

    maybe it can be of some help.
     
  14. ronnieroadster
    Joined: Sep 9, 2004
    Posts: 737

    ronnieroadster
    Member

    Your 21 stud flathead has many interesting differences compared to US produced blocks. The raised intake deck was only on early 1941 24 stud flatheads usually called the Mercury block here in the US. Never seen a raised intake deck on a 21 stud block here in the US. The casting shape of the block where the oil sender was located is identical to the 59 A Ford blocks and as mentioned before the added round boss for locating the return oil line for the so called full flow system was only found on the 59 A blocks here in the US.
    Having built many flatheads and having many more blocks in my stash I have never seen anything like your block. Thank you for posting the pictures today I learned more about the flathead V-8.
    Ronnieroadster
     
  15. The Rocketeer
    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 290

    The Rocketeer
    Member

    btw the US Blocks had that raised intake manifold area ,too. They were built until december 1937. In 1938 they machined it flat.
    Again, thanks everybody for your input and all the helpful informations.
    Chris
     
  16. ventilo
    Joined: Aug 25, 2009
    Posts: 247

    ventilo
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    my German '37 does not have a raised intake area.
     
  17. The Rocketeer
    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 290

    The Rocketeer
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    Hmm, do you have a pic of the bellhousing with the numbers ? It would be helpful.
    I´m starting to believe the current owner of that Flattie was either mistaken by the year of manufacturing or it was a replacement engine in that german 1937 Ford...?
     
  18. ventilo
    Joined: Aug 25, 2009
    Posts: 247

    ventilo
    Member

    There is no number at all on my bellhousing.
     
  19. 40FordGuy
    Joined: Mar 24, 2008
    Posts: 2,908

    40FordGuy
    Member

    A difference I see is it has the 8BA crankcase vent tube in the pass side front of the lifter gallery; (59A engines did not have that tube) You will need to use the 8BA intake, which mates that tube to the road draft tube.

    Happy Roddin'

    4TTRUK
     
  20. rotorwrench
    Joined: Apr 21, 2006
    Posts: 633

    rotorwrench
    Member

    The bell looks like it has a large "78" casting number but it is faint and rotated a bit plus it's upside down compared to 59 type casting marks. With that little boss & 21 stud it seems UK made or maybe Canadian. Good mystery there. That oil pressure port boss was a surprise on a 21 stud. Most universal carriers actually used that port since they had to have better cooling.
     
  21. The Rocketeer
    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 290

    The Rocketeer
    Member

    Does anybody have a pic of a canadian or british (pilot)21 stud and that bellhousing area? Maybe we can shed some light on this mysterious flattie :)
    @Fordguy: Are you positive that only 8ba Intakes would fit ´cause of that vent tube ?
    Awright, let´s say there´s no numbers on the german prewar blocks, so where´s this engine from ?

    In a couple o´days the freight company will ship this to my address and I will try to find out some details or markings to compare with US,Canadian or german blocks. FlatErnie, Flatordead or Hotrodmicky ? ...what´s your 2 cents on this ?:)
    Ronnieroadster and all, thank you guys !
    cheers,
    Chris
     
  22. ronnieroadster
    Joined: Sep 9, 2004
    Posts: 737

    ronnieroadster
    Member

    Chris
    No US 21 stud block was ever cast with the raised intake port area also Ford would never waste time machining the top of the block to remove that raised cast material. The outer edges of a 24 stud block with raised intake ports where they meet the cylinder decks have a slight raised lip in order to surface this material away would take a lot of time and effort not very cost effective in mass produced parts.
    Having a raised port 24 stud block is desirable for the appearance alone but they are not easy to find anymore.
    Chris where are you getting your information that 21 stud raised port blocks were in the US?
    Ronnieroadster
     
  23. The Rocketeer
    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 290

    The Rocketeer
    Member

    It´s from the Van pelt´s website:

    "Common features for 1938 V8's were the large hole in the cylinder blocks (seen with heads removed) between the 1st and 2nd cylinders and the 3rd and 4th cylinders on each side. The intake manifold mounting surface was machined flat (no raised area). There were core plugs (often called "freeze plugs") in the oil pan rail. The main bearing caps used studs and nuts to hold them down. There was a ridge (for the pencil resting test) at the front of the block, behind the top of the timing gear cover. Ford started to use the newer 24 stud engine for automobile production in a mid-year change during the 1938 model year."


    So, I figured, Ford changed it for 1938 and machined it flat. I could be mistaken but this is what I assumed, otherwise they wouldn´t mention it , I guess ?
     
  24. Hey mate, as per your pm here is some photos of my '37 21 stud engine. It doesn't have that round oil boss like yours does.

    Rear bellhousing casting numbers, i think it says B14T with a small n and o.

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    Rear oil area.

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    Intake area. I'm assuming this is the "raised" area that the later ones didn't have?

    [​IMG]

    Timing cover. This one had a crab type dizzy on it (pics to follow). Interestingly, a 24 stud i have (with aluminium factory heads) has a divers bell dizzy on it. Strange.

    [​IMG]

    Dizzy.

    [​IMG]

    Head area. I don't know if this big hole is what is supposed to be common for a '38 21 stud, although mine has all the similarities of a '37 engine.

    [​IMG]

    It also had an aluminium manifold on it.

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    And heres a photo of the heads. I believe these are factory cast iron replacements from what i've read, due to it having the firing order on it.

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    I'd love to hear any info anyone can give on this one while they are at it.
     
  25. The Rocketeer
    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 290

    The Rocketeer
    Member

    Nick, thanks a million for the pics ! The (replacement) heads could be from a Ford Pilot ? So now we have two "Mystery Flatheads" :)
    As soon as I have my motor at home, I´ll check some more details.
    cheers,
    CHRIS
     
  26. HotRodMicky
    Joined: Oct 14, 2001
    Posts: 1,763

    HotRodMicky
    Member

    Hi Chris,
    I think its a french (matford) engine,
    As a german engine never had an aluminuim oil
    Pan with a bendix starter(always bosch)
    As far as i know, but mike will now for sure

    The pan is worth some money!!!!
    So keep it or sell it for a lot of money!!!!

    I used to have a german 21 stud engine that had normal
    Main bearings,no babbits
     
  27. HotRodMicky
    Joined: Oct 14, 2001
    Posts: 1,763

    HotRodMicky
    Member

    28A , your distributor is a Lucas and was used in Pilots
     
  28. The Rocketeer
    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 290

    The Rocketeer
    Member

    Hey Micha my old friend !! :) Glad you joined in !
    Now that is some useful information here. Hmmm, so my engine is most likely
    a Matford? I knew about the aluminum oilpan, but I thought that was standard on german Blocks since the G29T is equipped with one.
    Gee, So much to know ....US, french, british, canadian and german....Somebody should write a book about all the "FOREIGN" Flatheads:D !
     
  29. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    The heads with firing order diagram are the common British ones used I think on wartime engines as well as Pilot, because they are very common. Many arrived new ones here from surplus warehouses in the '70's. 77E is a '37 truck number, with E for England.
    I think the round boss on the engine first shown very strongly suggests post-1942 casting involving casting tools from US or Canada...
    The aluminum manifold posted recently is Canadian C11a, made in both iron and aluminum during WWII and used up to '48...carb is late model, pump postwar and probably non-British with no primer lever.
    The forward vent tube (back to engine originally posted) if it is lower than manifold surface is '35-48, if a bit higher it was to fit 1949 up manifold. Removable part, so no big deal.
     
  30. The Rocketeer
    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 290

    The Rocketeer
    Member

    Thanks Bruce, I appreciate it ! So, because of the boss on the bellhousing my block is a post 42 ?
    cheers,
    Chris
     

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