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Technical Gasoline in 2018.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by S.F., Jul 2, 2018.

  1. S.F.
    Joined: Oct 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,891

    S.F.
    Member

    OK, I think I need an updated gasoline thread. I've searched and haven't seen a recent one (although I'm not sure what different thread titles people have used for all the gas threads) . I first noticed a change in the way my junk ran in 2008/09 ... Now I'm starting to notice it again. -Pinging- (and its not timing or jet size) I know speedway is low ethanol; several other brands are high ethanol. Sonoco is claimed to be ethanol free. I used to know all this but the info is starting to fade and I haven't found any solid current up to date info in a quick google search. (everything is 2011/12... some 2015 stuff is mixed in there)

    What stations in what states have what percentage of ethanol?
    What gasoline in what state have no ethanol?
    What is the highest octane pump gas with no ethanol?
    What gas in what state has the highest ethanol?
    What gas stations have LOW ethanol?
    What gas do you guys run?
    Do any of you mix race fuel with pump gas?
    (Please be specific with your engine, and engine internals)
     
  2. Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
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  3. robracer1
    Joined: Aug 3, 2015
    Posts: 488

    robracer1
    Member

    I hate deathethanol
    try this ww.pure-gas.org
    hope this is what your looking for
     
    S.F., fourspeedwagon and town sedan like this.
  4. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 17,812

    Deuces
    Member
    from Michigan

    My car burns regular unleaded.... If I try premium, the engine goes into limp mode....
     
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  5. Primered Forever
    Joined: Jul 7, 2008
    Posts: 209

    Primered Forever
    Member
    from Joplin,MO

    Download the Pure Gas app on your phone. That will tell you what stations in your area that do not have ethanol in the gas. This is what we do in our area anyway.
     
    Bandit Billy, S.F. and egads like this.
  6. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,717

    squirrel
    Member

    I run whatever comes out of the pump. 87 (or 85 in higher elevations), or 91 (or 93 up north) depending on what car and what I'm doing with it.

    Ethanol has higher octane than regular gasoline, you know...
     
  7. I believe it makes little to no difference if it has ethanol. It is formulated for F.I.. , not carbs.. Texas has " up to 10% " ethanol.

    squirrel posted while I was typing. I was like him until my 263 Buick became a 293, or thereabouts with 9.5+ cr. Pinging occured if a feather was not used on low speed 3rd gear acceleration. On a trip to Denver and return, used highest octane I could get. Helped.

    Ben
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
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  8. Model A Gomez
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,084

    Model A Gomez
    Member

    I run on ethanol when ever I can find it, had problems with ethanol eating the rubber in a fuel pump. We have several places with no ethanol gas, QT and Caseys both have it but the price is higher.
     
  9. King ford
    Joined: Mar 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,245

    King ford
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from 08302

    Hey squirrel ( and all others!) I am aware of the significant octane of ethanol but have several observations/ questions. One , in racing applications the additional power provided by alcohol is due to the fact that you can run much higher cylinder pressure and not incur detonation so how does a relatively stock pre computer controlled engine not suffer a power loss on mixed fuel ( even after after proper rejeting) and two even though it may be ten to fifteen percent ethanol if it's still 87 octane how can it take more cylinder pressure?
     
  10. The car in my avatar is pretty fussy when it comes to fuel. When I built the engine I did what I could to keep the c/r reasonable and I can run regular gas. I prefer to run premium non-ethanol fuel to prevent any rubber fuel system parts degradation, but I've found that fresh regular works a lot better (esp in hot weather) than stale premium. So, when I'm on the road and unsure of how much premium the gas station I'm at sells, I buy regular gas (with ethanol) and carry on. I keep a spare power valve for the center carb just in case the alcohol gets the better of it.
     
    S.F. likes this.
  11. In my area there is a couple Conoco stations that have 91 octane / no ethanol fuel. They call it OffRoad or similar.
    The main reason I use it, is because I have some cars that I don’t drive very often and it lasts So much better. If I wind up with a partial tank when I run out of driving season I don’t have to worry about it lasting until spring.
    Also, I only put it in my gascans so same deal for the mower and chainsaw.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Dave Mc and tractorguy like this.
  12. The dirty little secret is there is almost no such thing as ethanol free gas. When Congress outlawed MTBE (a fuel oxygenate additive) in 2005, the refiners replaced it almost exclusively with ethanol (another oxygenate). There are other alternatives to MTBE such as ETBE and Iso-Octane, but ethanol is almost always cheaper and money talks. The percentage is obviously less than 10%, but it is still in there.

    Living in Minnesota, all my crap runs on cheap 87/89 (E10 at most pumps), and it is tuned and built to run well on that fuel. In 20 years of playing with old cars, I can't think of one fuel system degradation related problem I have ever had that I can point to and say that was because of Ethanol.
     
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  13. S.F.
    Joined: Oct 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,891

    S.F.
    Member

    True, but ethanol heats quicker, and in a fuel injected car its not a problem because the fuel is moving faster; but a carbureted car with a mechanical fuel pump, the fuel isn't moving as quickly and can heat fast, This can be a problem when waiting in line at goodguys or traffic on a hot day. Will cause stalling. A phenalic carb spacer will solve that, but there's some cars you cant run one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
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  14. S.F.
    Joined: Oct 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,891

    S.F.
    Member

    That's all good and well, but there are a decent amount of guys driving stock low mileage mint original 50's and 60's cars that need the octane no matter how much you retard the timing or jet it up.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  15. S.F.
    Joined: Oct 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,891

    S.F.
    Member

    Two of my cars are VERY fussy when it comes to fuel.... the rest are fine on 87 all day even in the hottest weather waiting in line at the show/no pinging ever
     
  16. Mike VV
    Joined: Sep 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,619

    Mike VV
    Member
    from SoCal

    S.F. - You need more homework on the way fuel systems (old and new) actually work.

    Much of what King ford said..!

    Just what does an internal combustion engine run on..."OXYGEN"...not gas, oxygen..!

    Ethanol was added to gasoline as an "Oxygenater" (that is, more oxygen)...more oxygen molecules are added to the fuel by way of the ethanol than just gas can accommodate by itself.
    The gasoline/ethanol is just introduced to get the oxygen burning to push those pistons down the bores.

    All one needs to do is a little retuning to run well on today's fuel. MANY types of race car engines run with pretty high horsepower on...pure ethanol..! So why can't we, the little guys do the same thing...I'd guess because most humans hate change. This change has, yes made us rethink our fuel systems as far as corrosion problems are concerned. But as far as the way the engine runs...just think...a little different. Depending on the state of tune your engine was in "before" today's fuel was forced upon us, think - maybe a little more in jet size, maybe a little more timing. For those states with higher alcohol percentages than others, a little more compression. Not really that difficult to figure out.
    Spark plug reading is STILL doable also...but again, a little different thinking is required. The "coloring" of the porcelain is still there, but different. You need to look deeper into the body of the plug. New... spark plugs are also more of a requirement for properly reading the mixture and ignition timing effects.

    It's NOT like the sky is falling people, it's just a little different tuning mindset...simple as that.
    Get over your whining and move on into the 21st century...it's only gonna get worse..!

    Mike
     
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  17. S.F.
    Joined: Oct 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,891

    S.F.
    Member

    No.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
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  18. Bandit Billy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2014
    Posts: 5,556

    Bandit Billy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    We have several clear stations in the area. Usually located away from the metro areas, near recreation spots where people fuel boats and off road toys. Use the app mentioned above. Costs more, about a buck more a gallon in some places. If you cant find it just add Sta-bil to your 8 gallon fill up, especially at the end of the season. Your carb will thank you
     
  19. tjm73
    Joined: Feb 17, 2006
    Posts: 3,314

    tjm73
    Member

    Build/rebuild for modern gas and enjoy the drive.
     
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  20. Mike VV
    Joined: Sep 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,619

    Mike VV
    Member
    from SoCal

    S.F. wrote -
    but a carbureted car with a mechanical fuel pump, the fuel isn't moving as quickly and can heat fast,

    If you understand the system, this is basically a false and or incorrect comment.

    Mike
     
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  21. Joe H
    Joined: Feb 10, 2008
    Posts: 772

    Joe H
    Member

    I run the cheapest I can buy at the busiest stations in town. I know the fuel is rotated out of the tanks at regular intervals due to the volume of cars, so fresh fuel is always on hand. Second, I run a wideband air fuel gauge and have tuned to carburetors for the fuel. We in Missouri have had treated fuel for 20 or 30 years now and not once have I had a fuel related problem due to ethanol. Really not sure what all the fuss is all about, if your car doesn't run right, don't blame the fuel, blame your self for not tuning it right!
     
  22. When first built by Dad has issues with the float sticking in the Roadster. IIRC He found that the float tip rubber was degrading due to ethanol and replaced it with one compatable with ethanol.. I dont know if there is any truth to it but he was told that 91+ octane has less percentage of ethanol so he ran that also. We have a couple stations that have ethanol free and I have extensively tested both in my FI Harley and can tell ZERO difference in drivability, performance, mileage or deposits between the two.
     
  23. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,717

    squirrel
    Member

    that's my experience.

    But I live where it's dry, and I drive my cars year round. The big problem with modern fuel seems to be the increased volatility formula they use, which works fine with EFI, but not so good with carbs, as it tends to boil away at lower temperatures
    .
     
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  24. S.F.
    Joined: Oct 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,891

    S.F.
    Member

    No:

    The The RVP has changed from as high as 14 lbs. in the 1960s to where it is currently, which is as low as 7.2 lbs. in California during the summer months. The under hood temperature of many vehicles will reach 230°F or higher during a hot soak so 50% of the gasoline (the most volatile parts of the fuel) in the carburetor may boil off. This heating and subsequent boil off of fuel components can and does wreak havoc on fuel curves and ignition timing requirements of a carburetor equipped engine plus it will create vapor lock issues if the gasoline boils in fuel lines or the carburetor bowl(s). The answer, particularly in a carbureted engine, is to minimize the exposure of fuel system components to heat in every way possible. These modern fuels are mostly used for fuel injected engines where the fuel is rushing from the rear of the car to the front of the car with 125 lbs of fuel presser, constantly circulating. A mechanical fuel pump may be as low as 4 lbs, with gasoline resting in the bowl of the carburetor. Its a fact that the fuel is simply going to stay in one spot longer/under the hood on a carbureted car leaving it prone to heating up; than it does on a new fuel injected car.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  25. S.F.
    Joined: Oct 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,891

    S.F.
    Member

    you just increased your post count by one. while not contributing in anyway to this thread.

     
  26. S.F.
    Joined: Oct 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,891

    S.F.
    Member

    Mike, See my recent post and Squirrels post below. Learning is fun.

     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  27. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,717

    squirrel
    Member

    Actually the fuel system in many modern cars (in the past 15 years) is returnless....the return type regulator is old fashioned!
     
  28. S.F.
    Joined: Oct 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,891

    S.F.
    Member

    This doesn't affect the fact that carbureted systems can boil! nor does it have anything to do with it!

     
  29. Tickety Boo
    Joined: Feb 2, 2015
    Posts: 1,002

    Tickety Boo
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    In Wisconsin our motors sit from November until April, have learned the hard way to burn the last two tanks of the season with non ethanol. But what really,really,really ticks me off :mad: is the cost difference.
    $.040 more for 87 octane N/E and $.070 for 91 octane N/E Premium fuel. WTF? anyone know why?
    Small engine guys around here make a good living cleaning carburetors after storage of lawn equipment.
     
  30. town sedan
    Joined: Aug 18, 2011
    Posts: 1,084

    town sedan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    One thing I haven't read in this thread yet is that ethanol has a little less BTU energy compared to "gasoline" so a little more must be burned.

    Gasohol showed up after the first oil embargo and has been with us since. Still think I'll use the ethanol free stuff when my old heap gets back on the road.
    -Dave
     

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