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Fuel filter wiring

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by grf-x, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    I could really use some help here. I know I am a Grenade Inspector. But I am really quite the FNG when it comes to a certain things. I did do a search. Just wanted you to know before you threw me on the grenade.

    Need advice on running wire along the frame to the engine bay, Or some other way, that is clean and safe. This is for an electric fuel pump that I am going to run in line with the mechanical one.

    Chris from Shoeboxford gave me advice on how to connect the wires and suggested I mount the electric fuel pump near the tank on the frame (in front of the leaf spring mount closest to the middle of the car). But I want the wire running to the engine bay to be a clean install and the wire to be safe. Pictures of a clean install would be nice ( I am a visual learner LOL). But any advice how how to mount and rung the wire, be it inside the car or along the rail would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance
    Mateo Rhymer
     
  2. jack orchard
    Joined: Aug 20, 2011
    Posts: 238

    jack orchard
    Member

    wire would be best protected by running inside the car (under the carpet) as far as possible. protect as necessary. then drill a hole for a grommet to protect the wire as it passes thru the floor. protect the wire w/plastic protective covering the rest of the way to the pump. clamp as necessary. solder and shrinktube all connections. don't forget to use the correct fuse to protect the wire and the pump...jack
     
  3. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    Jack,

    Fuse? Crap. Any suggestion on what kinda fuse and where I should install it? Like i said, still learning. :). For for the info.
     
  4. 325w
    Joined: Feb 18, 2008
    Posts: 5,488

    325w
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Depends on the pump. Most tell you what to use. I would think 15 to be good. If the engine is stock and a low flow electric pump. You don't say if the car is 6 or 12 volt. Need to run a good sized wire that far back. If you have rewired the car the new fuse box will have a place for the fuel pump fuse. Jus sayn
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012

  5. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    Duh, guest that would help. Far as i know its stick except battery plugs and one battery cable.

    The car is a 6v 1951 ford deluxe fordor. The fuel pump came with not papers. I purchased it from Shoeboxford.com and i believe it is a us motorworks 6v pump. i was told a 10 gauge wire to the starter relay.

    would this be a blade amp or an inline cylindrical style (like what is stock in the car?) I would think between the pump and the starter relay and make sure the fuse is located in the engine compartment!?!?

    I do appreciate all the data.
     
  6. Hello and welcome,

    Just wondering why you are running a mechanical and an electric? I would assume it would be for easy priming when the car has been sitting for a while (and that makes perfect sense) ... one thing you might want to keep in mind though is this ... on a small block chev (among other engines) if the diaphragm inside the mechanical pump rips, (your mechanical fuel pump fails) and you run an electric pump in line with the failed mechanical pump, you can (will?) pump the engine crankcase full of fuel and destroy your engine bearings (apparently the fuel will push through the failed diaphragm and into the engine crankcase). Keep in mind, this is what I heard, I have not determined this to be the truth but it might be something worth looking into with your specific engine.

    It would really suck to break down on the road (mechanical pump failure) and then just flip the switch for the electric, car fires up and you think you are home free. I keep a spare (new) mechanical pump in my trunk for roadside repairs, my electric stays at home with my run-in engine stand.

    Just something to think about.
     
  7. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    Right now I am just trying to get the car running on the electric fuel pump alone. That is my first step. Plans for putting a mechanical pump that works (be it new or rebuild the one I have) will determine the roll the electric one with play. Right now I want to drive the beast while I work on other part.
     
  8. fordor41
    Joined: Jul 2, 2008
    Posts: 944

    fordor41
    Member

    personally I don't like to run wires under the carpet. I run them on the frame in wire loom. Couple years ago I kept blowing the fuse on my fuel pump on the way to NSRA York,Pa. Jumped the pump lead to my tail lights and finished the trip. Got home and pulled the wire from the loom and found nothing wrong. Replaced the wire and it's been OK for years. Would have been a nightmare to pull the wire if it was under the carpet. Some think hidden wiring is cool but sometime you're going to have to work on it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  9. 1oldtimer
    Joined: Aug 21, 2003
    Posts: 7,843

    1oldtimer
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    minimum 10g wire with asphalt wire cover along the frame rail with wire clips to hold it from moving. If you going to run it on a toggle switch the use a relay (you can get an old looking metal one) and use the toggle switch to control the ground side so you won't have to worry about power wires rubbing though.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Splinter
    Joined: May 14, 2005
    Posts: 1,112

    Splinter
    Member

    If you are using an electric fuel pump, you need to run a wire form the "acc" or "on" side of your IGN sw to the pump. That way you get the pump to run when you put the key in the ignition and turn it on. Don't bother with the starter solenoid or any of that.....just hook it to the IGN "ON" terminal, and it will run when it should.
     
  11. 48fordor
    Joined: Jan 16, 2009
    Posts: 142

    48fordor
    Member
    from York, PA

    1. Determine the current draw of the load.
    2. Pick wire size to feed that load with acceptable voltage drop.
    3. Choose the fuse rating to protect that wire. Remember that most fuses or breakers will enter into the trip area of the time/current curve above 80% of their rating.

    Place the fuse as close to the voltage source as possible.
     
  12. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    Splinter,

    After poring through my green bible— I could not find any indication of which, of the 3 connection possible on my ignition switch, on or ACC is. There was one marked "RAD. GA." Even if, would i have to take the dash out to access if I do not have the special tool shown in the green bible to take out the switch? I can't help but wonder if this is why chris from Shoeboxford suggested the starter, or was it the ignition, relay/solenoid since it is in the engine bay and easier to get to.

    I also want to thank everyone for their posts. I do appreciate all the advice.
     
  13. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,930

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    I always wondered if I should hook my fuel filter up to positive or negative ?? :D
     
  14. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    yeah I know! Typo, but you can't edit a subject line after posting, only the body. :p
     
  15. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,930

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Just pullin your leg :D
     
  16. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    Dude, not cool, I only have one leg!
     
  17. cederholm
    Joined: May 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,621

    cederholm
    Member

    :D


    One more time about why you're switching to an electric pump? If you're running a stock motor get the stock pump to work and save yourself a lot of headaches.
     
  18. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    I already have the electric fuel pump. The mechanical is bad for so many reason. I want to get the car drivable while i work on other parts of it. It comes down to "i have it, lets install it". I see a lot of people who throw money at everything, but I sometimes can't do that.

    There are plenty of drivers running electric instead of or as a back up to the mechanical. Now lets add to that... i am saving the old mechanical, so i can learn to rebuild it. Still would be nice to drive then car while I am doing so. I have to replace all the lines any way because parts are damage and parts are clogged. There is more, but i think this is a lung full as it is. :)
     
  19. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,930

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    I'd have to agree, mechanical fuel pumps are about as reliable as they come, many thousands of vehicles ran for hundreds of thousands of miles without a backup, and certainly not an electric fuel pump back up.

    Both my cars will run mechanical fuel pumps, cheap and easy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2012
  20. Terry O
    Joined: Oct 12, 2004
    Posts: 1,060

    Terry O
    Member

    I'd recommend you replace or rebuild the original pump. Not that expensive or hard to rebuild in fact you could have rebuilt it in the time this discussion has been going on.
    Mechanical pumps are just more reliable than electric especially for your application.
    With that said, if you still want to run an electric the advice to run it as close to the tank as possible is correct. These pumps like to push not pull. You do need to run a fuel filter between the tank and the pump and you need to make sure the pump is grounded. Best way to ground is to run a second heavy gauge wire parallel to the hot wire back to the front of the car and ground to the starter or bellhousing. The number one cause of failure of an electric pump is a poor ground. I suggest you also run a relay to energize it. Here is a diagram of wiring also incorporating an automatic shut
    off switch in case of an accident. This is also a consideration you must make when installing an electric pump. You do not want gas pumping out of a broken line if you've crashed and may be unconscious. Even this set up with the oil pressure switch only shuts down if you lose oil pressure. If you crash and the motor keeps running, the fuel pump keeps running....think about it, for your safety and your passenger. A lot easier, safer and cheaper to rebuild that mechanical pump.
     

    Attached Files:

  21. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    Well you all have given me a lot to think about. In the end I will be going with the mechanical. I just want to get it running around so i can figure out any other things i need to tackle. I have to wait until my son's autism needs are met first. After all he is my wheel tire and interior guy. Then I can put aside a little here and there for mechanical fuel pumps.

    Terry o - your schematic... is this possible under 6 volt? I know the part are available for 12. Not that it matters much since I am going to end up with the mechanical pumps.

    I am glad i went though all this, because have replaced all my lines and the pump help me discover a whole lot more. Like how prices for this industry are seasonal. During the winter, boiling out a tank and having it resealed was far more cheaper than spring and summer. Driving seasons really jack prices up. :(
     
  22. An inline fuse somewhere you can get at it, I don't know what your fuel pump pulls but fuse it rated to the wire size and you will do fine. The pumps I use oull about 3-5 amps and I use a 7 amp fuse that is less than my wire is rated for and more than the pump draws. The fuse will burn up before the wire and it is still heavier than the pump.

    If you look on line you will find a chart some hwere that gives you amp ratings for wire sizes. I run 16 gauge or 14 gauge to my pumps. it is way heavy but it carries the amperage well.

    Oh just to ad options, I have been known to run my wire along the top of the fuel line. That is not an accepted practice to some but it works for me. If the fuel line is out the way the wire will also be out of the way.

    This may help a bit, or maybe not it is a starting place.

    http://www.rbeelectronics.com/wtable.htm
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  23. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    Well this is all great info. I do appreciate it. Most all have suggested 10G wire. So i went with that. I can't find any on the fuel pump, and the company that makes it does not ship it with any info, you have to sign your life away just to get it. So with out giving up my privacy for something that should have come with the product or at least free access... I am not sure of the amp rating. I know it sounds stupid, but i work in IT and it has become important to me.

    I did the same thing you did. I ran in along, but above the fuel line. Since fuel will fall if it leaks (newton was a pretty observant guy), i figure that was the best place for it, so that fuel does not drop in the power wire. I ran the wire though and existing stock grommet, using some leftover old string to to prevent moving. The fuse is located under the dash between firewall and ignition switch.

    Thanks again for everyones help. I will make final connection tonight or tomorrow night and test. Then i will need to tackle the tank. I drank it of all it's funky, nearly black, gas. So testing will be done with a small gas container. After all it is just a test. Small steps.
     
  24. LOL :D:D

    The day we started kevin lee's flathead for the first time ( snce gawd knows when) we gravity fed it with a 1 gallon gas can that we rigged. :D

    120 gage seems like overkill to me, I run heavier wire than is comming out of the pump but 10 gauge just seems heavy. That said it will not fail you for damned sure, you pump should get all the maps that it needs. And as tie goes on and thw wire begines to corrode it will still be getting a ton.

    Just out of curiousity what pump are you running?
     
  25. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    The one sold by shoeboxford.com unfortunately I can't remember the model or company name.

     
  26. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    Crap i just realized that I still have vacuum ran wipers... did i disconnect them with I removed the mechanical fuel fump? FML LOL
     
  27. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    okay, i hooked up the pump the way chris over at shoeboxford.com told me. Mounted the FP near the tank. Except I used a gas can for testing. Black wire was grounded to bare metal on the frame. Brown wire was connected to 10g wire ran to the acc on the ignition switch. Test fails. Pump does not even sound like it is running. There is a fuse on the power wire. It is still intact (not blown) I disconnected the carb from the pressure gauge to see if fuel was present. I check that there was 6v reading not the acc pose on the ignition. There was when the key was turned on. The only connection i did not test for power was at the connection between the 10g wire and the OEM running out of the pump. Cuz i got ahead of my self and sealed it all up with heat shrink. Any thoughts?
     
  28. grf-x
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 299

    grf-x
    Member

    Okay everyone... just to recap and cover something I may have forgot to mention.

    1. This is a 6 volt positive ground.
    2. I am getting 6.**v reading everywhere i should even after the splice between the 10g wire and 14-16G that comes out of the pump.
    3. Chris' instruction was to ground the black wire to the frame. and power goes to the brown wire.

    So i did all the multimeter tests and I am getting power everywhere that is needed. So that part i got right.
    So i followed 51MercPa advice and pulled it off and bench tested it. Now my bench test was as follows:
    Pulled the pump off the car. Walk my fat arse and the pump over the battery. Attached brown wire to the neg. post and the black wire to the positive post (because I have a positive ground system). NOTHING. What! are you kidding me I have a bad pump. OK calm down i say... I then revered the connection. Brown to positive and black to negative. THE FLIPPING PUMP WORKED. I even checked the suction to make sure it is going the right way. It was.

    So what give? I trust chris because his rep is spotless. And he is so helpful. Any inut here? I am dead sure that my system is a positive ground I check the Battery connection so many times. Have I done something wrong?

    Also.. the pump has a puttering pumping sound. Like a diaphragm pump. Is this the way is should sound?
     

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