would a HA/GR with a hand pressure pump fuel system pass tech? Pressurized systems were pretty popular in racing in those days, and sure would look cool on one of our cars. I realize that it would be WAY more cost efficient to use a factory mechanical or a small electric pump, but THE COOOOOOOOOL FACTOR!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think you would have any problem at the Hamb drags but other tracks might be a different story. Would be cool.
I love the concept, but don't think any current sanctioning bodies allow for pressurized fuel systems. If indeed it is acceptable, I would like to go that way myself. The simplicity of that kind of system is beautiful.
Guys, If you want I'll bring it up next week when I meet with the Division 5 Tech Director. I'm pretty sure HA/GR rule #18 will have to be changed to limit the use of rubber fuel line to a total of 12" and the fuel line running past the flywheel area must be enclosed in a steel tube, 1/8" minimum wall thickness x 16" long. Rule #7 should be changed to read "medal firewall". While we may not meet 100 % of the NHRA rules, we should meet any that are "no brainers". Look at the last sentence in HA/GR, rule #24. Any other questions I need to ask him? Ron
I definitely would like to know on the fuel pump- I am seriously considering it. Truth is, NHRA legal or not, if I can run Mokan, I'd probably do it. However, it'd be nice to test n tune at my local track with it in place. I have no issue with the rubber line length, I prefer as little as possible on my stuff, and I like the metal tube past the flywheel,I honestly hadn't thought about that. Here's a question- where the steel fuel line passes the flywheel, would having it outside the frame suffice or pass?
Ron, Are they telling you the fuel line "shield" tube is in addition to the scattershield? I thought it was in lieu of it, on non-scattershield cars (and Joe hadn't said anything about ours, clearly visible). Yes, a clarification of that would be nice. On the hand pumped fuel system; I think their emergency shut-off requiremnts would preclude that as it was practiced back then. Adding an electric "dead-man" valve would likely be the only way they'd consider it. "Rule #7 should be changed to read "medal firewall"." I'll assume that's "metal". Otherwise the best I can do is a couple unit citations and a theater ribbon or two, nowhere near enough to make a firewall. And I'm guessing you meant rule #23 rather than #24. Sorry, Ron, couldn't resist. Not busting your chops, just having a friendly chuckle.
In lieu of the fuel line being enclosed in the 1/8th" steel tube, the fuel line can be steel braided where it passes the flywheel. All fuel tanks,lines, etc must be outside the drivers compartment and "within the confines of the frame or steel body". Even though Rob Park and Bob Blackwell said during our brief phone conversations that we were fine to run 9.99 or slower, the more I study the NHRA rule book the more it looks like we need to establish a 10.99 or slower class. I feel confident the acceptability at tech inspection will be much better at 10.99. I don't want a group of us going to a race and be turned away. There are several rules that need to be discussed with them during our meeting next week. I'll report the results from my meeting with them. Ron
Metal....Spelling was never one of my strong points. Some cars don't require a scatter shield but all cars require the fuel line protection near the flywheel area. The hand pressurized fuel tank will be discussed. The rules are somewhat unclear on that one. Rule #24: My copy of the HA/GR rule covering "general soundness and safety" is #24. Last sentence states "Must pass all track safety rules". I'll discuss our rules with the NHRA guys and get a reading on every rule. They may have some additional requirements that we don't cover in our rules. I'll put everything we discuss on this forum and let all the guys know what we need to do to race at NHRA tracks...or tracks that follow NHRA rules. Ron
You might also keep our original target of an 11.99 in mind as a "fall back" position on class limits should the 10.99 prove unproductive. If and when it becomes a factor there are various engineering ways we could accomplish it as a class that wouldn't change the nature of HA/GR. Good luck with it, at any rate. Still optimistic ,
Thanks for the clarification, guess I was reading my book with a "loophole" attitude. Now you have me worried a tad. On my link that's rule #23, am I out of date? If so, would you please post a link to what is up to date for me? Thanks.
Guys, I'd like our ET bracket quick enough that future cars (read that as faster) will find the HA/GR bracket attractive and join us. If the ET bracket is too slow they may decide to just go ahead and build for a quicker bracket. If you think about it, the cost would be about the same. Hell, I could have built a conventional dragster with a SB Chevy for a lot less than this ugly beast is costing and the car would easily run in the low 9's. Lets look to the future and hope the HA/Gr concept catches on big time. I honestly think it will. I certainly hope so. Ron
What kind of pre 62 eng on gas and our skinny street tires is going to run faster than 10.99. If anybody can do that they are a hell of an engine builder,chassis builder and there cheaten.
I encourage anyone that wants to go faster than twelve flat, to please build a modern car, with a modern engine. Go as fast as you want, and put some tires on there that will handle it. These things are a handful in the mid-twelve's. If the future means faster and faster, we might as well close up shop now. If your GMC is going to run in the tens, then my flathead needs a blower to keep up, and on and on. Presenting this to NHRA (to me) means finding more guys that are real happy to make it into the twelve's. I jumped for joy when I saw that win light flash 12.97. If anybody thinks they wouldn't get any personal satisfaction at those speeds, you may need to re-think your reasoning for participation in the class. On the other hand, It would be pretty cool to go faster. Maybe I should get to work on my Hemi and build that little slingshot chassis. I could have slicks, injection, glide . . . I can see the faster future in another class of dragster. Please keep HA/GR safe, fun and slow.
LOL.............. I remember someone in the 50's (Roger Huntington?) voiced their professional opinion that it was impossible to go faster than 150 mph in the quarter mile. Had everyone listened to that guy, where would drag racing be today. I'm sure your venture into the 12's was a reason "to jump for joy". Don't you think the guy getting into the 11's for the first time felt the same. I applaud both of you. Why does anyone feel it necessary to limit others? If someone can make one of these things go in the 10's, more power to him. At least he won't be limited by others that are happy to run at a lower speed. As far as my GMC running in the 10's, it may never get in the 12's. But you have to keep in mind that whatever my GMC runs, it will be done following the present rules. I don't want to change the rules to go faster....but I want to run the fastest I can with what I'm allowed to work with. I'm sure others feel the same. I personally don't give a damn if I ever beat another HA/GR car. I'm building this car to see what I can do with it. I like the HA/GR concept, I like inline engines, I like the way the cars look, but I'd also like to see just how good I can make it run. Ron
I also recall Hot Rod magazine's 167 mph "barrier" article, that stood for all of two months. "Presenting this to NHRA (to me) means finding more guys that are real happy to make it into the twelve's." In that, I agree. Quicker is already covered more than sufficiently by the more modern classes. If that's what a man wants, then get to it and good on ya. And I'll truly enjoy watching you run. The concept and point of HA/GR was (and is, for me) to enjoy the low bucks, garage built efforts of the turn of the fifties (like the "Bug") reprised with more recently available equipment of the same style. It has far more to do with the enjoyment of thrashing on & driving that style of equipment than going quicker than a given e.t. In truth I'm dubious about the value (to this concept) of attracting folks who's primary interests are more in the e.t. than the style of wrenching and running. They'll certainly be far more willing to compromise those aspects of it to achieve'em. In short, the premise of HA/GR is the "style" first and the "win" second. One tool toward this is a slow enough e.t. to help dissuade "non-believers" and folks unclear on the concept. The 12 sec. thing could be addressed as a class (when it actually becomes an issue) through engineering approaches, thus leaving those builders with better secrets still at the front of the pack where they should be. Slowing the class in that manner wouldn't change the competion one iota but would allow us to run at a more economical level. In looking this over prior to posting, it appears I've merely reiterated Rand Man's points, from a slightly different perspective. Just the same I'll let it stand, it's what I feel. It also appears I leap frogged your post Ron, so I added a paragraph for that.
Apparently I've been missing the entire HA/GR concept. It isn't meant to be a part of a race environment, it's suppose to be a 50's style race car, car show. Now I get it. Thats strange because the first HA/GR car I ever saw was at MoKan and the driver was trying to go faster than 100 mph. I didn't know he was really wanting to win the best looking trophy. I think it best if I bow my head, keep my mouth shut and quit trying to get involved in this whole affair. I'll race my car locally and keep trying to go faster all the time. Ron
um.... let me see if I can get my take on this to sound right. I think we all want to race, and be competetive amongst ourselves. I think we all would like to see others exposed to, and involved in, this part of racing/history. I think we all appreciate and applaud your efforts with the NHRA, and would like to see you continue those efforts. I think we'd all like to see some acceptance of this class by the NHRA and the tracks. OK, now, an opinion- My fear in setting our class rules/ ET bracket too low is that we will have safety rules imposed on the class that will hurt the nostalgia look of the cars. I don't want the class to be a "50's style race car car show", I want to race a 50's style race car, but I do fear the faster cars (or bracket rules)being required to be too modern to fit within the SPIRIT of the class. The vibe I get is that the other guys chiming in here are trying to say the same thing. I understand that it's all in the name of safety, NHRA wants us to not get hurt, and they have to cover their butt, but I'd sure like to run a single hoop roll bar and a hand pressure pump fuel system in the name of nostalgia. I'm hoping to turn a 14.00 the first season, then I'm setting my sights on "the ton", but I'd like to get there while keeping the car looking like it would have in '55. I hope that came out right.
Thank you. Yes, that's a clearer and more concise statement of exactly what I (and others, I'm guessing) tried to say. I regret that it was taken differently, guess I need to work on my presentation.
RON I dont know which one of the 3 cars that showed up in 2005 at MOKAN youare talking about as I can only speak for the HORNET .AT the end of the 07 season we had 250 runs down the strip Ican assure you we were trying to go faster on every one The satifaction I get out the car is finding that extra tenth .we have built 4sets of headers and 4 intake manifolds. Idont know how many hours Ihave spent on those one barrel carbs.I sawed a good carb up just so Icould see what size the passages were and how they ran.Its a hoot to get one of these 50 year old engines to fly .Some of the folks may be going style But these TULSA boys are W O T come on down we just throw them together . Winners run winners losers run losers till there there is only one
I need to start my comments by stating I don't have a HA/GR nor does it make sense for me to build one unless I can run it locally as a bracket car. That said, I still have a strong desire to build one and join the fun. Since this thread has strayed from the original intent, I just re-read a previous thread titled, "HA/GR Organization ????". Drewfus clearly explained how they have moved forward in Austrailia. They have agreement to run 13.50, with the hope of going to 12.00, if the governing body likes what they see. Altered pilot correctly points out that NHRA has no paradigm for HA/GR race cars. I've been reviewing my 2007 rule book and agree with Altered Pilot completely. So, the HA/GR group is asking NHRA for a new class, and a very lightly populated one, by their standards. The benefit to NHRA is, HA/GR race cars represent the roots of drag racing and deserve to be seen by spectators. And, definitely not in a cacklefest or exhibition format. That means the NHRA and its insurance underwriters are going to be sure there is little liklihood of a negative event. If the HA/GR race cars are to be kept close to the appearance they now have, then I'm sure a conservative E.T. and MPH limit will be established, like in Austrailia, with the caveat that it could be made quicker & faster in the future if on-track experience warrants it. Meaning, no crashes, out of control runs, program delays, etc. I, for one, would be content with a 11.99 limit. Based on how HA/GR cars are spec'ed, I think I wouldn't want to go much quicker that that in one anyway. What do you experienced HA/GR drivers say? How quick would you go in one? I am impressed and indebted to Ron Golden for all the work he has done and his passion for this form of racing. Keep up the fine work. If there is anything I can contribute from my remote location up here on the frozen tundra, please let me know. Bob
If you haven't been to Tulsa to see these cars run, You have missed a show. You should load up and come to town. It's alot of fun to see how many people gather along the fence to watch them run thier rounds, owners, drivers and crews of all types and classes show up to cheer on thier favorites. I have more than once herd some one ask these questions; HOW do you make these things run that fast? , IS that all the tire you run? , Where is the speed equiptment? . I have seen some BIG names come by and ask about these cars. Then say " I wish we could have as much fun as you guys". I have as much fun watching them as they have raceing them.
There was a ex-pulling racer who came by the shop Wed. and he was picking up some parts for a 56 Ford pickup he is building. He saw what I was working on, the GMC engine and he said he was over in Tulsa and talked to Bob Hindman. Anyway he was really interested in this class of race cars because it is truly a nostalgia class not like good guys that run new engines in old style cars. If we keep the old engines without the modern aluminum blocks and heads we'll be OK. I for one am making an engine plate so I can adapt a steel explosion proof bellhousing to the old engine. I value my feet incase of a flywheel failure. This doesn't make it go faster nor take away from the looks. I would like to think that a 296 cu. flathead with 3 94's or 97's would be able to be well into the 12's. I think that we can live with an ET limit from NHRA if it will get us in the door. I want our cars to be nostalgia looking but safe to drive. It would be tragic if someone got hurt. We can see from what happened at MO-Kan this year that these cars are build to be safe but not at any speed. I agreewith Mudflap, I will try to tune the car to go it's best and if 13.00 sec is as good as it goes so be it. I'm still going to go to races and have fun even if it means that someone beats me every time. I think that 11 sec. runs are going to be rare because of the limitations of the tires. NHRA is not going to give us cart blance as far as how fast we go because they want to protect themselves. I think that we can live with an ET limit so we can race. Roy
If I pissed anybody off, I'm sorry. I didn't build a show car, I built a race car. It's a race car but it has limits. Before we figured out how to launch this thing, we were smokin' and bouncin' all over the track. We had a blast last summer fighting for every tenth. I have learned a lot about drag racing. I'd like to keep this an entry level class.
I have kept my mouth shut for a while on this subject, but now I have to open it. Rand Man, I agree with you 100%. I think at 11.99, these cars are going to be a handfull with 6" tires on the back. I also want to go faster than I have been, but there will be a limit as to how fast we can go with the safety equipment that we have and the way these cars are built. I am not saying that someone can not build one of these cars that will run faster, but how is it going to handle down the track? I have ran 8.60 at 165 mph on a drag bike, but it was built by a professional drag bike builder(the frame was), I damn sure would not feel comfortable on a frame that I built running that fast. I think some people are beginning to miss the point on these cars again. If you could build a slingshot for what you have in one of these cars, I think you have put way too much money in to this class. Most of us that have one running, have built them as an entry level car. I ran a stock motor the first year and had less than $3000.00 in the car. I will admit, I am building a "non-stock" motor for this year. Do I think it will run faster, yes, but not in the 11 second class. I will be happy to break into the 12's if I do. Now, can anyone build a slingshot or a dragster for what I have in mine now or will have when I finish the motor?? I do not think so. If you can, you really ought to build it instead of wasting your time in this class. Mine was biult in my backyard by ME, not a shop with unlimited funds to dump into one of these cars. It built it for me and to have fun with. Yes, I do want to run faster and be more competitive than I was last year or I would not have started building another motor. Now I will shut up and go back in my corner, Robert.
REJ, Thank you for your opinion. However, for everyone's information I have 4 other partners on our car and we've individually spent less than half what you have...and you still have to build your new engine. I also made a deal with the machine shop and work on special projects for them to help pay for their machine work. A lot of free parts came from other friends because they liked what we are doing. I've had 2 other dragsters, a slingshot (9.08 @ 150 mph) and a SB Chevy rear engine car (7.88 @ 165 mph) so I've been there. I liked the concept of the HA/GR cars and managed to put together a team of close friends. One of them happens to be a chassis builder. I certainly appreciate your concern for my financial well being. But I did my planning before I started on this project and even though I'm retired and on a fixed income I can manage my part. If you've ran 165 on 2 wheels without ANY roll bar I'm sure 115 on 4 wheels should be safer. I personally think the bike would be more dangerous. I've spent a lot of time trying to get the HA/GR cars a place to run besides MoKan. I've had 3 invitations since November to have our group run at nostalgia events. I'm sure I can get a lot more. However, the cars have to be able to meet some NHRA rules (safety rules) or they can't run at these events. Hell, when I have the meeting with NHRA next week they may tell me to stay at MoKan since they don't have a place for us, and I sure won't argue too hard on the et bracket they limit us to. My communication skills are questionable I'm sure, but my intentions are to help this type of car grow in acceptance and have a place to run. If I piss anyone off, I certainly appologize because that isn't my intention. I'm really a layed-back person that may be too outspoken. For that I'm sorry. Ron
I have run at 5 different drag strips and passed tech at all 5, both NHRA & IHRA. The only things that I needed that are not in the ha/gr rules, were fire retardant pants and arm restraints.So I don't know what all this hopla is about, don't go messing it up by telling them to limit the et we can run to higher than 11.99 sec. My best et so far is 12.34 sec & at no time felt unsafe, would I need to put in restricter plates? If some of you feel that your car is unsafe at that speed then stick to a stock engine and run where you are comfortable. I certainly want to be able as Mudflap says to tweak and play with my rail to get another .1 sec. Did this all start because some Cal. tech inspector is on a power kick. They need to deal with there problem out there. You can build in the spirit of "The Bug" but it has to look safe and be safe.
2b-banjo, I think the 'deal' started because there is no place in the NHRA rulebook that 'fits' the HA/GR style car. Altered Pilot, who is part of ANRA and lives in California, which is incidentally, the home of NHRA pointed that out. I put a picture of the required roll cage for a 10.00 second or slower front engine dragster on "let's keep the spirit" thread. It in no way compares to a HA/GR roll bar. If dragstrip techs are letting you in, then in my opinion they are ignoring part of the rules and making a personal judgement. That is great! You get to run. But, they can just as easily take your opportunity to run away. It might help the HA/GR cause a lot if you would send a picture of your car along with your experience of passing tech at 5 dragstrips to Ron Golden so he could show the Division Director. By the way, did you run at Indy Goodguys? I've wondered if the HA/GR's that ran there actually passed all the tech requirements or if they were granted "exhibition" status and allowed to run. Also, nobody want to tell NHRA to limit the e.t.'s. People are speculating that NHRA will do that as part of legitimizing these wonderful drag cars. E.T. regulation exists throughout NHRA depending on if a chassis is certified or not, the roll bar/cage configuration, and other safety equipment. Someone could easily build a HA/GR-style car with a 400hp late Chevy 292 6cylinder on alcohol and run a heck of a fast second 1/8 mile, or smoke 'em the whole quarter mile. You think that won't bring an e.t. limit? Your car didn't have to be built to the HAMB rules because the techs that inspected it were unaware the is such a thing. I'm hoping that every NHRA track operator and tech inspector undertands what a HA/GR race car is and what the safety requirements are, so these things can spring up all over the country. This could be the best thing to happen to drag racing in decades.
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