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Front steer

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by customizer2024, Jun 29, 2010.

  1. customizer2024
    Joined: Oct 16, 2009
    Posts: 269

    customizer2024
    Member
    from niles, mi.

    I,ve always seen alot of cars with the tie rod out front, I know , thats all wrong, but they've been running them for years. Some times depending on the style your running, there just is'nt other choice. This weekend at the Indy RR Rumble There was a nice T coupe there that was set up like that, but he had lower steering arms that made up for most of the ackerman angle you loose when when you run them like that. They were chromed and he tried to tell me where he got them. He said he got them from Pete and Jake or Total Performents he couldn't remember for sure, But I searched with no luck. Does any body know where I can find these?:confused:

    I've seen a tect article on these resently where someone made some, but they took quite abit of work of metal work to accomplish. And I don't like making steering parts.:eek:
     
  2. customizer2024
    Joined: Oct 16, 2009
    Posts: 269

    customizer2024
    Member
    from niles, mi.

  3. hoop
    Joined: Mar 21, 2007
    Posts: 589

    hoop
    Member

    Total Performance now owned by Speedway Motors
     
  4. flatheadpete
    Joined: Oct 29, 2003
    Posts: 9,871

    flatheadpete
    Member
    from Burton, MI

    I heated and bent mine. let them cool for a while....slowly. Got rid of the ackerman problem.
     

  5. Putt it on the back where it belongs.
     
  6. customizer2024
    Joined: Oct 16, 2009
    Posts: 269

    customizer2024
    Member
    from niles, mi.

     
  7. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Total performance was the one offering these arms, but I haven't seen them show up in Speedways stuff yet. Honestly, there is nothing wrong with running the tie rod out front, as long as you take the time to set up your Ackerman correctly. This is why most of the time this gets a bad rap - it was usually not corrected leading to all sorts of handling evils. The only other bad spot is the tie rod becomes a focal point both visually and for damage.
     
  8. R Frederick
    Joined: Mar 30, 2009
    Posts: 2,660

    R Frederick
    Member
    from illinois

    Heated mine and bent them out as far as I had room, let them cool, problem solved.
    [​IMG]
     
  9. bamabucket
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 67

    bamabucket
    Member

    On my T-Bucket, the tie rod is out in front. It may not be the safest setup but I like the look. I didn't build the car but I believe the arms are from an Econoline and are just reversed. They may have also been reshaped but I don't know. The car handles very well (at least for a T-Bucket) with no shimmy or bump steer.
     
  10. bamabucket
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 67

    bamabucket
    Member

    I meant to include a picture - here it is.
     
  11. scottybaccus
    Joined: Mar 13, 2006
    Posts: 4,109

    scottybaccus
    Member

    I hate this discussion. It is NOT wrong to put it out front!

    It is wrong to use rear steer arms on the front without correcting them to the right angle. The exact same principles apply. You just need to move the tie rod point out into the wheel. Believe it or not, close IS good enough. Even OE vehicles don't get it perfect.

    Ever drive a late model Chevy Truck? Have trouble turning it? Ever looked under the front? Wow! The steering arms are in front of the axle!
     
  12. Yes, GM built millions of cars and trucks, with front steer.
    Also notice their center link is pulled back, behind the outer tie rod ends,
    to create the desired Ackerman effect, this is not practical on a beam axle.
    OEM engineers typically understand Ackerman.
     
  13. DD COOPMAN
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,121

    DD COOPMAN
    Member

    I HATE this discussion too, SCOTTYBACCUS. And...it is NOT WRONG to put it out front. What IS wrong is that SO many builders (USUALLY on T-bucket - type vehicles) continue to build (MODIFY) these vehicles without understanding or taking into account the "ACKERMAN principle". This faux pas is so prevalent that any one of us can go to almost any of the hundreds of "car shows" around this country on a given Saturday night and stand a good chance of seeing a T-bucket with its tie rod out front. NOTHING wrong with that, as such, but when you watch (and listen to) the ones that make all kinds of tire-squallin' noises as they point the front tires in any direction other than straight-ahead, it's easy to figure out what the problem is. Correct "ACKERMAN" dictates, with the wheels/tires pointed straight ahead, that a straight line, when drawn through the center of the tie rod pivot and the king pin center line, will continue on through the center of the rear axle, where it intersects with a like line drawn through the same components on the opposite side of the vehicle. It's a really simple concept. As SCOTTYBACCUS says above, CLOSE is probably way-more-gooder than when not addressed at all. Think about it like this...when you make a turn with CORRECT Ackerman, as the radius of the turn DECREASES (tighter circle), toe-OUT increases, as it should. When a tie rod is placed in front, it usually utilizes spindles swapped side-for-side. LOTS of guys just bolt-on the tie rod that used to reside out back. Looks good, huh(?)...NOT! NOW, when you make any turn, as the radius of your turn DECREASES (tighter circle), toe-IN increases, as it SHOULD NOT. The two front tires are not following their respective desired radiuses. Remember, the inside tire ALWAYS SHOULD follow a smaller radius (MORE TURN) than the outside tire. INCORRECT Ackerman has the OUTSIDE tire turning more sharply than the inside tire. Hence, the two front tires don't roll in the radius that they're preferred to follow...they fight each other and slide sideways across the asphalt, concrete or gravel that they're trying to roll on. That is technically OUT OF CONTROL! I know that MOST of you gearheads understand this principle, but it's downright scary when I think about the possibilities of WHAT ELSE some of these folks didn't understand or think of when building their rides, especially when I think about them coming at me and mine head-on. I am NOT the authority on this. There ARE many sites on this WWW that can easily explain this RELATIVELY simple concept better than I. Check it out. I'd bet a bunch of folks wouldn't believe how much nicer their cars would drive if they corrected this problem, or better yet, understand the concept and build with CORRECT ACKERMAN in mind in the first place...it's a big deal. It CAN be done correctly, as shown by the multitude of cars out there that WERE done correctly. DD
     
  14. R Frederick
    Joined: Mar 30, 2009
    Posts: 2,660

    R Frederick
    Member
    from illinois

    I've driven mine quite a bit with wider tires on the front, I have yet to hear a peep out of mine because I did bend the steering arm outward.
     
  15. bamabucket
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 67

    bamabucket
    Member

    I don't hate this discussion - I am glad to get technical information related to safety. Since I am an owner of a "T-bucket type vehicle" and apparently these cars continue to be built with no regard for the Ackerman principle, I was concerned that I was driving an ill-handling vehicle and did not recognize that I had a serious problem. I try to maintain my T-bucket type vehicle and operate it safely so I do not endanger anyone when I am coming at them. I did not build the car, but am responsible for its safe operation and I take that very seriously. Even though the car handles well and does not make any "tire-squallin' noises" when turning, I thought I better check it out to see if this was just due to luck or if it had the correct Ackerman angles. I was relieved to see that it appears the builder did assemble the front end correctly, either by chance or deliberately based on his understanding of the Ackerman principle. The steering arms appear to be at the correct angle to intersect at the center of the rear end. I did not check this with a string line, but it looks OK and I gather that close is good enough. I have attached pictures of the steering arm on the driver's side (the other one is at the same angle) to illustrate this and would appreciate any comments regarding my assumptions that I have the correct Ackerman angles. I like the look of the tie rod in front on a T-bucket type vehicle, but I suppose there is good reason to call this configuration a suicide front end. Thanks for this important safety-related tech info.
     
  16. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Looks like your pretty damn close, so it should be fine.
     
  17. bamabucket
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 67

    bamabucket
    Member

    Thanks for the assessment - I thought it was close but it is always better to get a second opinion. I just took it for granted that the front end was set up right because the car drives well and didn't realize how important these angles could be. I give credit to Pat Boyle from Louisiana, the guy who built the car.
     
  18. Hackerbilt
    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 6,244

    Hackerbilt
    Member

    That shows class.
    Many wouldn't bother to give the real builder any credit at all.
    Thumbs up to you 'Bama!!! ;):D
     
  19. bamabucket
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 67

    bamabucket
    Member

    Thanks. I wouldn't take credit for another man's work. I have been asked many times if I built the car and the answer is always the same - I just feel better telling it like it is. Pat didn't want to sell the car but had to because of family health problems. He almost choked up when he handed me the keys and I promised him I would respect the car and give it a good home. He came back one time with his Dad to visit the car and was pleased that I was taking good care of it. I consider myself fortunate to be the caretaker of the car and benefit from Pat's hard work and craftsmanship - hope I can pass it on to someone else who will appreciate and enjoy it as much as I have.
     
  20. DD COOPMAN
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,121

    DD COOPMAN
    Member

    BAMABUCKET...Your front-end on your T-bucket looks absolutely great, as does the rest of your car. The steering arms on your car are somewhat unique, to me, anyway. It's obvious that the builder of your car took this 'often-overlooked' phenomenon into consideration and dealt with it in a most-positive manner. Looks nice and probably drives like a dream. See guys, like I said in my original post, this situation CAN be made to work PROPERLY, if only the builder is AWARE of it in the first place, and secondly if he grabs this by the horns and builds the car with the PROPER front end geometry in mind. Really nice car, BAMABUCKET. DD
     
  21. DD COOPMAN
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,121

    DD COOPMAN
    Member

    See, it CAN be done properly. It's just amazing to me how often we see cars where the owner has chosen NOT to address it. Believe me guys, I'm not picking on your T-buckets. I kinda like the darned things. It's just a phenomenon that is easy to see on a 'bucket, especially IF it's done incorrectly. DD
     
  22. bamabucket
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 67

    bamabucket
    Member

    DD, thanks for the compliments. The car does truly drive very well. I don't know for sure what Pat used for steering arms, but I am glad he used the right ones. He told me that he used some Econoline parts in the front end, so maybe the arms are Econoline that he either reversed or reshaped. Does anyone recognize these steering arms? I replaced the brake drums with Econoline drums that I got from RockAuto, so I assume the rest of the front brake parts are also Econoline.

    I'm glad you weren't picking on T-buckets, because they are my favorite car. I wanted one from the time I saw pictures of Norm Gabrowski's famous bucket in LIFE Magazine in 1957 and I finally got mine a few years ago. You are right - there isn't much on a T-bucket that isn't in plain view and a cobbled up front end setup is right out there. There were some very nice T-buckets at the National T-Bucket Alliance Nationals we recently attended in Colorado Springs and a wide variety of front-end setups. Even to my technically challenged eye, some of them looked a little questionable but they probably looked great to the guy who dreamed them up and I can only hope none of them will cause ill-handling that could injure someone.
     
  23. 29nash
    Joined: Nov 6, 2008
    Posts: 4,544

    29nash
    BANNED
    from colorado

    But you don't box up your noodle, prevent diverse ideas to enter.:D
     
  24. twofosho
    Joined: Nov 10, 2005
    Posts: 1,153

    twofosho
    Member

    Your builder might have worried about getting the ackerman close, but somehow he seems to have forgotten about centering the tire footprint on the intersection of the king pin axis with the ground plane. Not doing this introduces many negative effects, perhaps as many or more as having inaccurate ackerman, not the least being excessive tire scrub and wear. Unless you have power steering, having the tire footprint totally outside this point certainly will build up your upper body and arm strength though, because you get to jack up the front end of your car with the steering wheel every time you go around a corner.

    Beautiful looking steering arms though.
     
  25. Tdesoto276
    Joined: Mar 22, 2006
    Posts: 115

    Tdesoto276
    Member
    from Des Moines

    Customizer:

    The part no is Total Performance SA123. I don't know if it is still available. As you can see from the pictures, the tie rod locates outboard from the bungs connecting to the spindle. I bought these to go on my T when I was running disc brakes. I switched to '40 ford brakes and these won't fit with the backing plate for that set up. Let me know if you want them and we can cut a deal.
     

    Attached Files:

  26. DD COOPMAN
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,121

    DD COOPMAN
    Member

    TWOFOSHO, I believe, is referring to a front end goemetry term known as "SCRUB RADIUS", or SAI (steering axis inclination). It is also known as steering offset, and as scrub geometry. This quality can be described, on any particular car, as being "zero scrub radius", or varying degrees of "positive" OR "negative scrub radius".

    ZERO SCRUB... Occurs when the bottom of the SAI line coincides with the CENTER of the tire contact patch AT ROAD LEVEL.

    POSITIVE SCRUB...If the SAI and an imaginary line drawn through the center of an upright tire (as viewed from the front) intersect BELOW the road surface, the scrub radius is POSITIVE.

    NEGATIVE SCRUB...If the SAI and an imaginary line drawn through the center of an upright tire (as viewed from the front) intersect ABOVE the road surface, the scrub radius is NEGATIVE.

    This NEGATIVE and POSITIVE SCRUB can be more easily viewed by picturing a tire mounted farther OUTBOARD (POSITIVE SCRUB), or farther INBOARD (NEGATIVE SCRUB), with regard to the SAI line. An easy way of changing the scrub is by swapping wheels that have more OR less offset.

    In the case of BAMABUCKET's front end, the SAI is represented by a line drawn through the kingpin, on center, top to bottom. Looking at the pics of his front end, it looks like he probably does have a somewhat POSITIVE scrub radius. As far as any "dangerous" effects with what he has, I seriously doubt that. His front end probably DOES NOT exhibit any more POSITIVE SCRUB than most hot rods, especially cars that have somewhat positive offset wheels installed. One thing that POSITIVE SCRUB does, vs. ZERO scrub, is increase road feel. And yes, it does require more steering effort. I really have to wonder, though, just how hard it is to steer that LIGHT T-bucket, with relatively small front tires. As far as saying that the scrub in this case is more important than the Ackerman, I totally disagree, but what do I know? I'd say you've got yourself one quality set-up, MR. BAMABUCKET. DD
     

    Attached Files:

  27. bamabucket
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 67

    bamabucket
    Member

    Based on this info, I took another look at my front end. I didn't use a straightedge or string to get an accurate measurement, but eyeballing it confirms an definite positive scrub radius. The front tires are 165/15's, with a very small footprint. These tires have been on the car for several years, but I don't know how many miles. They appear to be wearing uniformly. The car runs straight, with no more minor corrections needed than you would experience in a stock late model car. DD's assessment is right on - the car is light and very easy to steer even when stopped and all speeds or angle of turn. It has been a long time since I drove a full-size car without power steering, but I remember it enough to know the T-bucket steering effort is very very low by comparison. I could reduce the scrub radius by changing the front wheels for some with a different offset, but I don't want to spend the money for something that doesn't seem to be a problem. The information on scrub radius is good to have and could be useful in diagnosing handling problems - I have just learned lot about steering geometry on straight axles and more knowledge is always good.

    The positive scrub radius on my bucket could explain something that I experienced when I recently transported the car in my new trailer for the first time. I strapped it down securely with ratchet straps on the front and rear ends in an X pattern. The parking brake was set and the transmission in park. When we made our first rest stop, I checked the car and found that the front wheels had turned full lock to the left and the straps were a little loose. Could this have been due to the positive scrub angle? The back straps were still tight. I left the wheels turned and tightened the front straps and they stay tight for the rest of the trip. On the return trip, I turned the wheels to the left before tightening the straps and the straps stayed tight for the rest of the trip home.
     
  28. bill wallace
    Joined: Oct 26, 2006
    Posts: 104

    bill wallace
    Member

    There is so much good information in this post. Most of the time when using a Ford style beam axle that was designed for narrow tires & drum brakes & wider tires & modern brake systems the king pin inclination is lost in maintainig scrub radius but since were not racing these cars & dont need maximum turn addhesion its not a big problem. A simple rule of thumb for ackerman is if the tie-rod is behind the axle the input should be inside the king pin & if the tie rod is ahead outside the king pin.
     
  29. AllSteel36
    Joined: Jul 20, 2009
    Posts: 562

    AllSteel36
    Member
    from California

    Along the lines of this topic, could you use RHD spindles and swap them side for side, and just run it?

    Reason I ask is I have a RHD chassis (mid 40's Ford), and might hang on to the spindles if it's possible.
     
  30. customizer2024
    Joined: Oct 16, 2009
    Posts: 269

    customizer2024
    Member
    from niles, mi.

    Thanks guys for all your advise. I'm so used to getting negitive response to front steering. It was nice to get some constructive positive responses. It's all in the way you set it up. I even got hooked up by tdesoto276 with a pair of arms. Problem solved. :D
     

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