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front drive blown reverse flow flathead

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 55willys, Dec 23, 2012.

  1. Slag Kustom
    Joined: May 10, 2004
    Posts: 4,312

    Slag Kustom
    Member

    pair of 50 mm dcoes hanging out the sides.
     

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  2. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,350

    38FLATTIE
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    from Colorado

    That would be equally cool!

    I've got a Caddy flathead for a future project, that I'd like to see that, or dual IDA's on!:cool:
     
  3. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,274

    Ned Ludd
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    [​IMG]

    Now that would look brilliant between the frame horns.
     
  4. Check out ol' skool rodz
    Their is a guy there by the name of clever lever ( or something close to that)
    He did a few very slick reverse flow flat heads with individual motor cycle carbs and last I saw he built a sbc that was reverse flow the eye candy is killer!!!
     
  5. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
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    Thanks for the great ideas. The whole build is aimed at late 50s-early60s build. I am trying to use parts that were available then.

    I read that Potvin used a set of Stromberg aircraft carbs so as not to have them flood into the blower and cause explosive damage. I should have written it down lost the info. A pair of SUs would look good, I am not real familiar with how they work.
     
  6. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
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    Here is an overview of the whole project so you can see where I am going with it. It is a 29 Ford closed cab pickup 6" chop stock fuel tank in cowl. It will be on a 32 frame that is pinched at the cowl and kicked 8'' up in the back to make the rear of the frame parallel with the middle and line the bed rail up with the belt line. The front of the frame will be dropped 1 5/8" so my stock grill shell will fit. The front cross member will be an A moved back to the stock distance from the grill.

    The front axle is a 40 Lincoln that will be out front under the blower and the front spring will be attached under the split bones. The steering is from a Fordson tractor turned upside down and mounted to a plate by the fire wall. This will give me dual cowl steering and no tie rod, Ackerman will be taken care of by angling the pitman arms back and the steering arms forward.

    The rear end is a 40s 3/4 ton truck converted to a quick change the original way lots of welding. The trans is a T98 from behind a 48 flathead the gears are from a T19 Ford with a 4:1 syncro first gear. Some machine work to do this but the are from the same trans family.

    The engine will be a 41 59A if it is not cracked. Reverse flow intake and exhaust swap. It will be blown with a 6V53 Detroit blower on its side intake on the driver side. Tubes from the blower will go into a header and into the exhaust ports. The exhaust will come out the top via the original intake ports then turning and going out the hood sides.

    Brakes will be wide 5 hubs and drums from early sprint car and late 50s- early 60s Ford 3/4 ton 12x2 self energizing backing plates.

    I hope this description can help see what is in my head.
     
  7. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,274

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    Here's an overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU_carburetter

    SUs are basically extremely simple. They are constant-vacuum carbs and adjust themselves to conditions automatically because of the way they work. For this reason it is impossible to have too much carburettor with SUs.

    They flow more than one might expect. By modifying the internal features of the air passage and perhaps using a stiffer piston return spring they can be made to flow silly numbers.
     
  8. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
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    Thanks for the link and info. The more info the better when it comes to making decisions on parts to use.
     
  9. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
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    Ned do you have any recommendations on size of SUs to use in a pair on my blown 239?
     
  10. How about 2 small blowers mounted end to end with each plumbed directly to a log manifold on one side of the engine, then feed each blower with a single big carb, so everything criss-crosses from one side to the other.

    Wow...it's late....:eek:
     
  11. expavr
    Joined: Jul 28, 2006
    Posts: 78

    expavr

    I wrestled with a similar engine build trying to put together a crank driven blower setup and ended up using a crank driven ProCharger centrifugal supercharger instead. The supercharger is driven by a gearbox using straight cut gears that can be interchanged to adjust the boost. The gearbox is an off the shelf unit from The Supercharger Store in Arizona. They have a lot of experience with crank driven supercharging and might be able to help you with the gear reduction part of your build. I'll be interested to see how you resolve the QC interface between the crank and the blower.
     

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  12. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,274

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    It would depend on the blower drive ratio. If you're aiming at pumping, say, 10% more air than the naturally aspirated engine (theoretically) would, you'd be pumping slightly more than a Jaguar 4.2.

    The dual HD8 set-up from a 4.2 XJ6 would be ideal. They have a bad reputation due to the erratic automatic cold-starting device, which is basically a small third carb sitting between the other two, controlled by a thermal switch and a solenoid. Installing a manual switch on the dashboard instead of the the thermal switch is a simple fix for that.
     
  13. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
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    The length of 2 3-71s would be longer than my current 6v53 that is 18" long. I want to the blower and carbs on their side so there is less chance of flooding the intake tubes and :eek: blowing the whole system off the engine
     
  14. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
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    Thanks for the gear box info I will check them out.
     
  15. 340HilbornDuster
    Joined: Nov 14, 2011
    Posts: 1,960

    340HilbornDuster
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'm building a "Potvin style" setup for a 340 (It's going on my 318 (402) Poly now (same timing cover).

    It's cheap Brand New E-Bay Detroit 6-71.
    I used a half inch aluminum plate, milled down the water pump area on the timing cover where the plate goes, I'm using two blower end drive covers that will be welded together and bolts will go through the plate, trhough both covers and in to the blower.
    When Poly comes back I'll bolt it on, cut a hole for the blower double key crank pulley and index the blower to the crank before i drill the bolt, dowel holes.

    1 to 1 ratio should be plenty boost with a roots!
    No need any gear boxes!

    The covers make it look pretty "factory"
    In this position (low) i don't need to reverse the blower.
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/album.php?albumid=36664&pictureid=423088
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/album.php?albumid=36664&pictureid=423089
    I'll probabaly go this way (high). Blower needs to be reversed!
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/album.php?albumid=36664&pictureid=432091

    The setup "was going" in my Charger but i got a new ride today....

    Tommy
     
  16. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
    Member

    <HR style="COLOR: #e5e5e5; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e5e5e5" SIZE=1> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
    I'm building a "Potvin style" setup for a 340 (It's going on my 318 (402) Poly now (same timing cover).

    It's cheap Brand New E-Bay Detroit 6-71.
    I used a half inch aluminum plate, milled down the water pump area on the timing cover where the plate goes, I'm using two blower end drive covers that will be welded together and bolts will go through the plate, trhough both covers and in to the blower.
    When Poly comes back I'll bolt it on, cut a hole for the blower double key crank pulley and index the blower to the crank before i drill the bolt, dowel holes.

    1 to 1 ratio should be plenty boost with a roots!
    No need any gear boxes!


    I looked at your pics. Nice work on the layout. I was wondering how you plan on driving the water pump?
     
  17. 340HilbornDuster
    Joined: Nov 14, 2011
    Posts: 1,960

    340HilbornDuster
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    Water Pump:
    Havent really figured it out yet....
    I have a old external water pump from a sprint car (e-bay)
    I think I might drive it from the front back of the blower (power output prt) with a Hilborn style drive belt.
    The water gets routed with AN hoses to the aluminum plate.
    I'll thread two holes for the water inlets.
    Alos will be using a remote T-Stat housing.
     
  18. expavr
    Joined: Jul 28, 2006
    Posts: 78

    expavr

    Consider a remote mounted electric pump. Meziere has one that will pump 55 GPM. That's what I'm using on the hemi.
     
  19. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
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    Thanks for the info on SUs Ned. Do you know anything about Zenith-Stromberg 175 CD-2 carbs off of a TR-6? I have found a few pairs of these on e-bay. How do they compare to the SU?
     
  20. 340HilbornDuster
    Joined: Nov 14, 2011
    Posts: 1,960

    340HilbornDuster
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    WARNING! Not HAMB Friendly!

    "flooding the intake tubes and :eek: blowing the whole system off the engine"

    For that reason (+ I'm Sick of Carburators)...
    I'm going with a Homebuilt Megasquirt EFI that controls both Fuel and Spark AND it also can control a Boost Pressure Control Valve!
    A 1:1 driven 6-71 on a small block could get the boost "up there"?

    It'll have one injector per cylinder + 2 before the blower for cooling.

    I'll try to hide all of the New stuff so it looks period!

    Aloha Tommy


    <!-- / message -->
     
  21. mtkawboy
    Joined: Feb 12, 2007
    Posts: 1,213

    mtkawboy
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    Dick and Mike Landy did all the R&D and built the Flat Fire engine. It originally ran in a fliptop funny car style roadster with complete engine management systems on ot but it was deemed to be "not built to the spirit of the vintage rules" so it had to be changed somewhat so it not be a modern flathead powered funny car and the on time computer stuff removed. It had to be preset before the run and not make tuning changes going down the track to comply with the new rules caused by them. I was there when it first ran and thats what i know to the best of my knowledge. It may not be 100% accurate
     
  22. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
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    Received blower end plates today to make the quick change box out of. Thanks 270ci. I am looking for a pair of 2" SU carbs to feed it.
     
  23. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
    Member

    Working on the gear box it looks like I will need about 5" from the blower end plate to the end of the cover. Thinking about making it in two halves, an open housing 2 1/2" and an end cover 2 1/2" to ease the changing of the gears. Or I can make a new blower end plate that incorporates the open housing to have only one sealing area. The problem I have is bolting it all together, it has 6 bolts that hold it together and if I use only those 6 to bolt it all together they will be about 7 1/2" long making it hard to remove it for a gear change in the limited space to the grill. Any ideas on bolting the end covers on? Thanks Jim Ford
     
  24. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
    Member

    Here are a few pics of my 29 parts. 40 Lincoln front axle and a 6" chop on the door and how I addressed the taper in the window opening.
     

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  25. beater40
    Joined: Sep 19, 2006
    Posts: 79

    beater40
    Member

    I've been thinking of front mounting a small rootes style blower on the front of my 59A flatmotor, for a drive I have been considering adapting/strengthening a '48 fan drive unit with differing pulleys for a reduction, running 2 belts from the crank up to the fan unit and 2 more back down, the axle for these pulleys would need a front support I guess. One disadavantage is the power loss running these belts. this motor is not necessarily for much power improvement, which would be good of course, but just because I'm sure it would look good and could fit in my 40 pickup, dont know where the radiator would go though
     
  26. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
    Member


    That could work but you will either have to make a sliding bracket to mount the blower or an outside tentioner for the belt. I am mounting the blower in front of the radiator so no problem for me. The reason I am reversing the flow is to eliminate heat. Jim (55willys)
     
  27. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
    Member

    I have been having aluminum parts cast for another project that I am working on and I think I will make a pattern and cast the gear housing and end plate. Jim
     
  28. cretin
    Joined: Oct 10, 2006
    Posts: 2,968

    cretin
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    What ever came of this plan?
     
  29. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,664

    55willys
    Member

    The cost and labor involved has put a temporary hold on the project. I am still collecting parts for it in the meantime. My focus has been on my manufacturing business (Highway 101 Rod and Custom) and to that end I am building a hotrod to showcase some of the parts I manufacture. You can see my progress on that project here. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/international-kb-7-chop.989019/

    I have not posted for a while and will be picking up the custom rear end this weekend.
     
  30. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 1,414

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    Hey, 55willys;
    Nice project. Somehow I missed this. On the QC gears & extras depth required, you only need maybe 1/2 to 1/3 (maybe less) of the original gear thickness. So you'd gain room (or ease of assembly/etc) = to the amount you thin the gears. Remember, these were designed to propel a 2000+ lb car. I doubt the blower could ever absorb (require) that much torque. Also, a lot less friction is used turning the thinner gears. Another way to reduce friction, is to machine a groove ~ .090" wide in the driven gear (depending on how wide the gears end up). The VW guys figured that out in the 60's, on the cam gear (stock width) - the gain was worth the effort. I did do that, never had any trouble, but also never verified the small hp gain. :D . Hope to see more of this project, soon. I could assume
    (?, :D ) that the '29 will also showcase your parts (both those currently, & maybe soon-to-be?). :D .
    Marcus..
     

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