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Four Port Hilborn on Blown Hemi...

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by powrshftr, Aug 30, 2013.

  1. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    So I really want to be able to put a lot of both street and strip miles on this thing when I finish it up.I've been talking to lots of old timers and young techy guys alike,and here lies the problem:

    1: Everyone seems to agree that mechanical fuel injection is going to be a nightmare on the street,but it just looks SO right,and is true to the equipment I am trying so hard to replicate from the early '60's

    2:Carburetors won't look right,and a 4 port Hilborn with an EFI fuel rail sticks out like a sore thumb too...

    So,does anyone know of someone producing or modifying 4 Port Hilborn injectors with a provision for efi that will hide it from view completely,preserving a 100% traditional appearance,but allowing the thing to actually run at part throttle and allow it to be driven around town between trips to the track?

    I've searched all over the net,and everything I have found looks totally out of place.
    There are Enderle bug catcher setups that look perfect,but that unit is a little newer looking than I would prefer to use...
    Basically,this car needs to have nothing on it that appears to have been built after 1963-64.

    Anybody got a line on something...?

    Thanks,

    Scott
     
  2. Root66
    Joined: Oct 6, 2008
    Posts: 87

    Root66
    Member
    from Norcal

    "Everyone" used to think the Earth was flat. I am of the opinion that Hilborns can be made to drive like a carb. (starting can be a little tricky)
     
  3. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,115

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    try and use TBI instead of TPI and set the inj's over the blades and put a scoop cover on it when its parked
     
  4. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    Everyone I have talked to was adamant that there is no provision for part throttle driving;only idle and WFO......If there's no intermediate circuit,its going to be a tuning compromise that will run mediocre everywhere,won't it..?
     

  5. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,003

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I thought you could buy thread in nozzles for EFI from Hilborn?
     
  6. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    Thats a good one.Similar to the way the Enderle-style units I found are configured.The only way you can see it is by looking straight into the scoop.
    So far your idea is at the head of the pack dreracer.
     
  7. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    Everything I have seen requires a machined aluminum fuel rail that sticks out like a sore thumb Rich.
    I'm referring to a Hilborn unit like this one:
     

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  8. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    Yeah,I had seen those,but I'm having a hard time getting used to how huge those injectors look sticking out the side.As long as they stay below the hood and just the scoop sticks out,I will be fine,as the engine is going to be severely set back anyway...I just cant seem to let go of wanting it to look...for lack of a better term...more 1960's-ish and less 1990's-ish...?
     
  9. Ok, your pic shows mechanical injectors , yes ?

    What about using a modified spider injector?
    Hide the box anywhere and run the lines just like your pic.
    Those injectors on the spider are small. You'll need to redo the nylon lines but that's easy with that handy dandy special tool.

    There's two styles of the spider and the later is big improvement. I have an old style one that was malfunctioning after 180k miles, you can have it just for the asking to play with a mock up.
     
  10. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    31Vicky that would be a great help...sending you a PM right now.Thanks!
     
  11. 32v
    Joined: May 20, 2007
    Posts: 952

    32v
    Member
    from v.i.

    call mike at alkydiggers
     

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  12. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    32v,have you got a pic of the other side too...?
     
  13. hemiphil
    Joined: May 6, 2010
    Posts: 25

    hemiphil
    Member
    from australia

    have a look in the kinsler fuel injection handbook on the web, constant flow section, has really good info on running mechanical injection on the street, especially how to set barrel valve in relation to butterflies, so you don't get big gobs of air, also you can use a jet selector with 8 pills to tune for lean to rich mixture, i suggest you use a pyrometer in exhaust when engine exhaust gets hotter you can richen engine by turning jet selector, as well as running a secondary bypass on barrel valve to control deceleration and coming out of corners, read the kinsler book, heaps of good info, cheers.
     
  14. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    Thanks Phil!I guess Kinsler would definitely know how to make stuff run hard during transitional throttle type situations...sprint car guys are constantly pedalling those things on slick tracks...
     
  15. Root66
    Joined: Oct 6, 2008
    Posts: 87

    Root66
    Member
    from Norcal

    Don't know about other brands but Hilborn has a bunch of different barrel valves, some have ramps that go from slow to go and others have ramps with gradual tapers and narrow grooves that widen with throttle opening. The secondary bypass is another idle/off idle tuning tool.

    Lots of tuning possibilities.
     
  16. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    I will have to call them for more info...that sounds like it could be a pretty drive able setup if I took the time to learn the tricks to tuning it....
    Thanks everyone for the replies so far.There have been a few that have definitely opened my eyes to possible ways to making this work.


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  17. Casual 6
    Joined: May 25, 2008
    Posts: 246

    Casual 6
    Member
    from Great NW

    Check this out: Also, what's "spider injector"?

    [​IMG]
     
  18. 51 Hemi J
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 394

    51 Hemi J
    Member

    I think if you incorporate a pill selector like those used on sprint cars, you could make it run on the street.

    http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/..._about_mechanical_fuel_injection/viewall.html

    I know the article above mentions one but I also had a good friend of mine who had a Blown SBC and Enderle Bug hat on top and had the Kinsler pill selector. When he cruised around, he could select the jet that made the car run good with current conditions as well as differing driving conditions whether it be cruising or highway driving.

    Be prepared to carry a spray bottle if the motor stalls though or you'll almost never get them to fire.
     
  19. This
     

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  20. Rich,
    I think where the problem lies is that with a blower and a four port setup there is no were to hide the fuel rail.


    This has been discussed in general to the max, yes mechanical injection can be run on the street, Pete jackson markets a step bypass which will give you a mid range and top end. You can also limit your fuel supply with your fuel shutoff but it is a matter of learning to play with it. Or if you are not going to run on a sanctioned track you can get an in cab dial a port setup that was used in Sprint cars way back when. There are some oher tricks as well. But like I said it has been discussed at length more than once.

    is any of this a good idea? I suppose it all depends on how patient you are and if you are a good tuner or just mediocre.
     
  21. rfraze
    Joined: May 23, 2012
    Posts: 2,003

    rfraze
    Member

    This "you can't drive a mechanically injected car on the street" crap is as much a fallacy as "you have to put the toilet seat down"! Several of my Willys friends do just that with blown/injected engines. I have seen it many times on cars that have been run that way for years. Geri Tarvin did it years ago and just said, "Get the Hilborn book. It will tell you how to do it."
    What I have found is that each person has a procedure or a set-up for priming the system for INITIAL start-up. Those systems range from a separate pump with a momentary switch to PRIME the injector to a squirt bottle. Ted Radoumis believes and has proven that all you really need is a tank to GRAVITY FEED the injector pump. A few extra cranks build fuel pressure to the barrel valve the first time it is started today and sufficient pressure remains to start easily throughout the day.
    It IS mechanical injection, so you will have to set it up right and dink with it til you get it and from time to time, but NONE of these guys are forced to adjust all the time, so they would say do it. WE DID!!
    Junior Thompson and Ted Radoumis have been setting these systems up, FOR THE STREET, for years. I will PM Ted's number to you.
    Junior set up Dennis Johnstons coupe (There is a video link about this car and the injection somewhere on here) and Ted's P/U preceded a LONG list of cars he has done for people. He is a tech guy at Irwindale and is very knowledgable.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  22. Casual 6
    Joined: May 25, 2008
    Posts: 246

    Casual 6
    Member
    from Great NW

    31Vicky - Does the box in the center of the spider act as anything more than the fuel rail? Looks like each individual injector at the end of the line still has the control wires attached. Except for being compact enough to fit inside the intake manifold, it looks like conventional EFI.

    I've not looked at later model OEM systems before. Any major quirks with the setup? Are injectors available with different flow capacities?
     
  23. rfraze
    Joined: May 23, 2012
    Posts: 2,003

    rfraze
    Member

    Casual Six,
    Yes, injectors with different flow capacities are available, as are different nozzle sizes available for the mechanical injector.
    A mechanical version which was set up for the street can be laid into hard, but to maximize the strip performance, nozzle changes and adjustments would be in order. Put it back the way it was and drive it home, remembering that Scott was talking about a blown and injected deal on the street. That alone requires some level of finesse.
    How about Vic Young and some of the other guys who have been running these systems for so long jumping in here. I'm still trying to get Radoumis on the HAMB.
     
  24. stimpy
    Joined: Apr 16, 2006
    Posts: 3,547

    stimpy

    you try the old tried and true Bosch pump and nozzle set up al lthe lines are braided to the nozzles and the fuel metering is doe by the pump , mercedes used this set up for many years and parts are available ,KInsler is one of the places that helped develop its uses in other feilds , the gm spider set up is good also as the actual injector is hidden in the plastic block with only the fuel going to the nozzle , also look into other type of EFI injectors that do not use a fuel rail but a braided hose that screws on the injector ,seen some that look like a standard nozzle in size and the plastic hose withthe crimp , but with 2 fine wires to give away its electric , they were bosch units . European cars have used sets up like that for years , only us Americans use the fuel rails as its easy and cheap to make . look into possibly adapting a set up from a porsche 944 , have to figure a way of working around the airbox of the K jetronic set up
     
  25. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    Just read that Hot Rod article.That was some good stuff.I need to dig deeper.I'm gonna make some calls tomorrow.I've found a couple shops that specialize in this stuff and really seem to know what they're doing.


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  26. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    rfraze,if you could pm me Ted's # that would be a big help.There's nothing I love better than pulling off something
    all the armchair quarterbacks and magazine mechanics say can't be done.



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  27. powrshftr
    Joined: Mar 29, 2013
    Posts: 4,550

    powrshftr
    Member

    At this point I would just like to send out a very sincere thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

    I just spoke for almost an hour with a gentleman who has experience building and driving some of the hairiest machinery to ever run down a track,and he was gracious enough to share specific details of his experience building and tuning,and patient enough to answer my dozens of questions.

    Once again,you guys are truly showing what you're made of.

    Thanks.

    Scott


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  28. rooman
    Joined: Sep 20, 2006
    Posts: 4,052

    rooman
    Member

    A friend of mine in Australia ran a hat injected blown small block on the street for some time. We built a tank that sat on the inner fender well just behind the core support and was high enough to gravity feed the mechanical pump. That tank had a Holley float bowl and was fed from the main tank by a couple of electric pumps in the trunk. The returns from the injector went to the tank up front and the float shut off the fuel from the main tank when the level was high enough. For the initial fire up he gave it a shot of fuel with a squirt bottle but after that it was a key start deal as long as the motor had some heat in it.

    Roo
     
  29. rfraze
    Joined: May 23, 2012
    Posts: 2,003

    rfraze
    Member

    Very Doable Idea, contrary to popular belief. Here is a group of street driven Willys in front of the Morrow Bay Rock. Three are blown and mechanically injected and are about to take to the highway on a putt up the beach to Cayucos.
    The front tank w/ float bowls is but one way to do it. First one I saw done that way was Larry Dixon's 55 at the Bob's in Congo Park. Miss that place.
     

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