Register now to get rid of these ads!

Technical Ford Verses Chevy Starter?????????????

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by brigrat, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,877

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    I don't do a lot of Ford motor's. I know Chevy's well enough but Fords not so much. On a Chevy you can shim starter alignment but on the Ford 302, manual trans I don't see how you can align starter to flywheel. How do the Ford guy's do it? Thanks!
     
  2. If the starter (Ford) bolts on AND you have the correct starter for the flywheel (two different I think) then there is no alignment issue. Better tolerance? :)
     
    dana barlow, RMR&C and Hnstray like this.
  3. RmK57
    Joined: Dec 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,175

    RmK57
    Member

    Correct. Fords use a plate between the engine block / transmission to keep perfect starter alignment.
    Starter shimming is a GM thing for sure.
     
    dana barlow likes this.
  4. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,036

    squirrel
    Member

    On a Ford, if it don't work right, you just keep replacing parts until it does work right. They usually work right, unless you tried to do some swapping....then, you're probably screwed.
     
    '51 Norm likes this.
    Register now to get rid of these ads!

  5. Yep, there's a manual starter and an automatic starter. The difference is the length of the snout, with the manual being slightly longer IIRC.

    Never have understood why Chevy couldn't come up with a better design...
     
  6. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,036

    squirrel
    Member

    I guess you don't understand how chevy works...they came up with a great design, it allows for their crappy machining tolerances.
     
  7. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,683

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    On post-Henry Fords and SBC era Chevy's, maybe it's interchange Philosophy. Ford was consistently wild (after Henry died!), starting with the Y block. Variants and different years of same engines with very poor interchange, nearly totally different engines with same displacement, same engine with different flywheels and good luck figuring out which you need, on and on. SBC was like its real ancestor, the flathead Ford. Nearly everything interchangeable all the way through, with seeming actual care for interchange...just as with the flathead, the last one built was still drilled for '55 motormounts.
    Ford's way probably makes sense if all is based on your actual product and use by normal customers...you go to the dealer and use what the book says, and who cares if it doesn't fit the wrong car.
    Chevy's way made sense for rodders and restorers, and probably very little sense for their actual business. The people who benefit and love Chevys for this ease are probably about the fifth owner of their Chevy, and quite likely not to know or care at all for whatever Chevy makes nowadays.
     
    Moriarity, Muttley and squirrel like this.
  8. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,877

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^And the crappy tolerances of after market starters!^^^^^^^^^^
    On a Chevy the shims move the starter closer or farther from the crank center line, not for and aft. I am thinking this Ford needs the same adjustment BUT you Ford lovers don't seem to think so?
     
  9. If you're having alignment issues, are you sure you have the right bellhousing? A number of Ford sixes have the same block-to-bellhousing pattern as the small block V8, but the starter is located slightly different on the bell. Hard to tell from just looking at one without both types to compare, but this will cause misalignment problems.

    There's also truck bells, different from the car bells, but those use a different flywheel. Got a part # on the bellhousing, that would probably clear it up.
     
  10. Slopok
    Joined: Jan 30, 2012
    Posts: 2,335

    Slopok
    Member

    Most Fords use Chevy starters cause so many have Chevy engines!:rolleyes:
     
    chargin03 and '51 Norm like this.
  11. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,877

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    It's bolted to a '60's early '70's Scatter shield. Will have it apart soon.............................
     
  12. Relic Stew
    Joined: Apr 17, 2005
    Posts: 1,117

    Relic Stew
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    An aftermarket scattershield may need to be aligned. Use a dial indicator to make sure the trans register hole is centered on the crankshaft.
     
  13. RmK57
    Joined: Dec 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,175

    RmK57
    Member

    I agree. When you hear the starter grinding away you instantly what's under the hood.:rolleyes:
     
    RMR&C likes this.
  14. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,877

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    To re-ash this thread, did Ford ever make a front "bracket" like a Chevy that mounts from starter to block?
    AND I am working with a scatter shield that has a plate between it and the block, doesn't that change the starter engagement?
     
  15. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,683

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Ford flatheads used a simple bracket from front of starter to a pan bolt from some time in the mid-'30's to the collapse of Ford in 1954.
     
    Moriarity likes this.
  16. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,036

    squirrel
    Member

    not that I can recall. The way the starter is mounted on a Ford, is naturally stronger.

    The mounting surface of the starter, in a normal installation, is up against the thin steel separator plate, which is in contact with the block. The flywheel has it's depth set by it's own offset, and the location of the crank flange. Since you are not changing the location of therear surface of the block, nor are you changing the offset of the flywheel, nor the location of the crank flange, it should engage just the same.
     
    427 sleeper likes this.
  17. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 4,099

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Really? Really never heard either Ford or Chevy starters "grind". Not sure what you're hearing. Now, Mopars on the other hand, that's a different story! :) Well, they don't grind so much, but they sure do make a lot of noise. I remember taking my 71 Charger back to the dealer service center to have the starter checked after I got the car. The service writer or manager, whatever they called it in those days, had me start it to show him the "problem". He just shook his head and said "That's normal".
     
    32Dan and Truckdoctor Andy like this.
  18. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,380

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    Sometimes it amazing how far the Chebbrainwashed will go to defend a poor GM design :eek: If you care to check, the vertical flange design used by Ford on many vehicles for many years is the same basic self- centering deal used on most tractors, trucks, gas and Diesel, whatever- because it works. In fact the starter on my 406 car with a 12:1 427 is an old 302 starter that I swapped the 3-bolt FE nose onto many years ago, spins it fine and no adjustment necessary. Chebbie stubbornly stayed with an inferior setup that even sounds cheap and tinny. Kinda like the distributor in the back thing- which of course helps hide that frikkin' ugly HEI thing
     
    VANDENPLAS and 532r5 like this.
  19. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,036

    squirrel
    Member

    Chevy started out with a good design, look at the starters they used in the 50s...until the Turboglide came along, and they decided to use two vertical bolts, instead of a round flange.

    I have a 70s 350 starter on my blown 427, cranks it over just fine...maybe I'm just lucky.
     
    427 sleeper, j-jock and VANDENPLAS like this.
  20. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 4,099

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Yeah, you and about 300 million other Chevy owners.....
     
    427 sleeper, Johnny Gee and 32Dan like this.
  21. deathrowdave
    Joined: May 27, 2014
    Posts: 1,969

    deathrowdave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NKy

    In the early 70s 351 C engine , there were some Ford starters that had the starter relay mounted on them the same as a Chebbie . They bolted to the belhousing face as a normal Ford starter does .
     
  22. Primered Forever
    Joined: Jul 7, 2008
    Posts: 224

    Primered Forever
    Member
    from Joplin,MO

    I use the V8 Explorer starters on SBF. They have a solenoid on them like a GM and don’t need the firewall solenoid.
     
  23. RmK57
    Joined: Dec 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,175

    RmK57
    Member

    I kinda like the fender apron relay. It's very handy for bumping the engine over or a 12 volt source for other accessories.
     
  24. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 3,598

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    How did you come up with that idea? Ford still uses a fender mounted solenoid, they just call it a relay now, and it sits flat instead of pointing out. If it didn’t need the firewall relay, why did Ford spend all those millions of dollars to put them on everything? I also use the Explorer starter, but I wire it like Ford did, with the extra relay/ solenoid.
     
  25. Primered Forever
    Joined: Jul 7, 2008
    Posts: 224

    Primered Forever
    Member
    from Joplin,MO

    I just tried it when I built a Model A Tudor 14 years ago and have done 2 others since then. They all still work flawlessly.
     
  26. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,380

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    Now I gotta go look at my 5.0 Exploder lol...
     
  27. theboss20
    Joined: Dec 30, 2018
    Posts: 171

    theboss20

    There was a shim made for Ford starters because of crank float caused by a worn crank button...it backed the starter off to keep the drive from bottoming out and hanging up...


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  28. I have been equally angry at both brands at one time or the other. I ended up having a collection of different noses for the Ford starters. That way, I had the flexibility to use the starter on a Windsor or an FE.
    I am not a fan of the pole shoe setup of the Ford starter. On marine engines, the contacts always seemed to become oxidated, and the starter would fail when you needed it the most. The fix was never fun in the rough water.
    I have also had a miserable time getting the starter shimmed for the correct clearance. The last time to get the correct clearance, I had to shim to the max, and add one more shim to one side.
    There is always just enough time between changing starters, to forget everything I learned about the damn things. So I end up having to learn the tricks all over again.
    Bob
     
  29. brigrat
    Joined: Nov 9, 2007
    Posts: 4,877

    brigrat
    Member
    from Wa.St.

    The plot thickens ..................................................
     
  30. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 25,959

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The problem with Fords is as a couple of guys said.. You have the exact plate between the engine and bellhousing that you need for the flywheel/flexplate you are using with that particular engine and trans that Ford Specified. No just grabbing a plate that bolts to the engine and trans you are running and calling it good because you got the starter with the right number of bolts.

    Chevrolet two bolt bolt to the block starter? Figure out how many times some of the ones we get as rebuilds from the parts house have been through the rebuild shops and every time they go the first thing that happens is the end frame surface that mounts to the block gets a trip to the belt sander to be slicked off to have a nice machined looking finish. Most of them include shims now with the "we machined it off to look nice, now you make it fit. If you buy a brand new genuine GM end frame from GM you usually don't need to shim it.
    Those crappy aftermarket "universal" Chevy Gear reduction starters that you can also clock yourself, Anyone want to take a guess on how many " I put a gear reduction starter on my Chevy and now it doesn't work right" threads we have on the Hamb? A bad idea guys keep buying because they want to be one of the cool guys when GM makes small body gear reduction starters for both 154 and 168 tooth flywheels that you can readily buy that are pretty well hassle free.
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2020 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.