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Technical Ford FE: 352 or 428?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Chris, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. A friend several decades ago bought a real good running 410 engine with the automatic trans to replace the FE in a 67 ford one ton truck. He then learned that he needed the special std flywheel. So he bought a new rebuilt short block. And hauled that 410 to the scrap man.
     
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  2. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,386

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Old Wolf, the 410 only came in Mercury’s in 1966 and 67. But they did put 428s in Thunderbirds, starting in 1966, I think that’s the first year. But by 1966 FEs had PVCs in the valve cover. The early FEs had a road draft set up.
    Ouch! Old Wolf, there went a $300+ crankshaft!

    Bones
     
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  3. 40 & 61 Fords
    Joined: May 17, 2006
    Posts: 1,999

    40 & 61 Fords
    Member

    That bumper/winch combo would look kind of neat on your 59 4x4!
     
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  4. The 65 engine I have, has a PCV but as we've learned it's been messed with too. It's probably a mix n match of all kinds of junk
     
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  5. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,386

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Yes, the PCV was earlier than 1966, but I think 1966 was the first year for the 428, in the Galaxies ,the T birds and Mercury’s. Your engine looks text book stock for 1965 to me. They just slipped a 428 block under it, or bored the 352 to 4.13 or stroked it to 3.98. Maybe... I alway include the “ maybe” with Fords back in that era. We Ford people have learned over the years to never use the words “ never” or “ always” lol.


    Bones
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  6. And NEVER say assume:eek:, always say presume:D,
     
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  7. Yeah I hope to have it out in the next week or two...depends on weather. And I will pull the pan and see what's what
     
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  8. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 6,201

    sunbeam
    Member

    From Motors manuals from 61 to 65 no 352 4 barrel 352 listed in 65 and 66 352 4 barrels hp stayed 250 same as 64 2 barrels the 360 hp 352 was a 1960 only
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
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  9. yes I knew that. that's why is stated its not a 410. some 64 engines had a PCV that hooked up where the road draft tube is located. there will be date codes cast some where on the engine heads and intake . Its too crusty to see them now.
     
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  10. deathrowdave
    Joined: May 27, 2014
    Posts: 3,490

    deathrowdave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NKy

    GD it Man !
     
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  11. That's what makes me think my engine is a 390. Its certainly a 61 thru 64 because of the radiator fill tank mounted on the engine. However someone could have changed the intake after all of these decades.
     
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  12. Jeff Norwell
    Joined: Aug 20, 2003
    Posts: 14,765

    Jeff Norwell
    MODERATOR
    Staff Member




    I think is a 390 T-Bird mill..... Proper Autolite 4100 carb,Early silver T Bird Covers, Front recovery tank... whats odd is the color.. that strange green/blue engine color. which Ford ran in 58/59 and some 1960's versions.... Also.... the Valve covers are 1960 and older... the spark wire holders are forward on the covers.. on 58/59 covers had them centered on the V/C's..... Then again....55-59 years old.. a lot could have been changed.
     
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  13. That green is some rustoliem I sprayed on it immediately after I bought it. I spray everything I buy at auction with that color to identify that its mine. If you look at the pictures of the GMC mill in my auction thread you will see the same color on it. The T bird mill has a 1962 date code on the intake. I think its a 390. When I pull the oil pan I can check the bore.
     
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  14. It's been a lot of years since I've worked at the engine machine shop. Guys would have to bring their cores in with no oil pans so we could check for spun bearings. On FE's, if the guy bought a 390, he had to bring in a 390. The 390's had beveled counterweights, and 352/360 were totally squared edges...or the other way around. Pretty sure that's right however.
     
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  15. Not really my thing. Pretty spendy winch to sit on the front of a truck and probably never get used!
     
  16. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,386

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Put that winch out there on the net, and you will have close to a free truck. I sold one a coulpe of years ago, just the winch, that needed some work, for $350. It’s “ the “ winch for the 4x4 crowd!



    Bones
     
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  17. Yeah, I figured that out. complete working ones look to bring 700-1000. I ordered a new remote for it, to see if it will work and make it complete.
     
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  18. One way to spot the '61-63 T-Bird motors is by the intake manifold. While all other Ford motors of the era had angled carburetor pads on the intake (tipped forward), the T-Birds' intake was machined flat (parallel to the crankshaft) because of hood clearance issues. That may be true for the '64-66 'Bird motors too, but I can't remember for sure.
     
  19. That's what is great about the HAMB! Learn something New all the time. I been wrenching on FE,s since I was 14 and never knew that about the intakes. I had to go take a look. Yep its flat. and has a 1/2 inch thick aluminum spacer under the carb. that spacer has a heater hose running thru it. and a port for a PCV.
     
  20. That's also why the spark plug clip on the T-Bird valve covers are forward and side-specific; because the air cleaner assembly sits lower, Ford relocated those for more clearance between the wires and the housing.
     
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  21. deathrowdave
    Joined: May 27, 2014
    Posts: 3,490

    deathrowdave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NKy

    The winch and bumper are quality stuff . My Power Wagon has a hydraulic winch on it from a wrecker . Powered by a snowplow pump on the engine . It is 20k single line pull , bumpers are from scrap truck frame . The winch you have is from an era when American built meant something . I would transplant that on the 57 truck . Nothing breaks in them , very similar to the FE starter motor powering it . Easy to fix if it breaks . You will be sorry later if you sell it , keep it and use it yourself , reap the harvest from your purchase . Looks like you got a good engine and trans also , look for a divorced transfer case and mount and front axle and you have a heavy duty early 4x4 . These old tanks are heavy hunks , my Power Wagon with a Diesel+5 Speed and me in the seat , empty bed hits the scales at 6800lb. It takes a bunch to get one moving and more to stop it .
     
  22. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,386

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Change that trans to a 5 speed overdrive NewProcess, and you can keep the gearing and have some speed. Easy with the divorced transfer case.


    Bones
     
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  23. I beg to differ re . flat intake to ID T-bird 390-4v. Have had several cast iron 4v intakes off '62-3s with angled intake carb base. To level the carb a wedged aluminum spacer was used which had water passages to heat the carb and a port for PCV vacuum. If the manifold has a cast engineering # with a 'S' for the third character like C1SE 9425-A the 'S' indicates design for 'Bird. All I've documented used 'CxAE' ('x' being model year) design for full-size Ford/Merc. '61 'Bird 4v intake has taller carb base than '62-3-4 and plugged port forward of carb that could be removed for PCV vacuum. '64 4v had angled oil fill neck and threaded boss forward of carb base for AC compressor bracket. '65-6 all had angled bases but no fill tube. Post your engineering # and casting date code to ID intake.
    The flat vs angled thing really comes into play with the 3-2v aluminum intake. Flat for 'Birds - stair stepped for Galaxies.
     
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  24. Ok I looked and the intake has a C2AE casting. definitely not a S. However the carb is horizontal with the crank. I can easily see that the aluminum spacer between the carb & intake is indeed wedge shaped.
     
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  25. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 4,326

    s55mercury66
    Member
    from SW Wyoming

    Yes, the motors in the T-birds were dropped down in front for hood clearance. I guess they found it easier to mill the carb pads flat on the 3 carb aluminum intake than to do that with the cast iron ones. I'm going to have to check, but I think the Lincolns of that era also have the crankshaft level with the ground.
     
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  26. What's the full engineering part # and date code on the intake? Pics would be dandy to see.
     
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  27. The 4v intake has the carb base lower to the front for the more-common (re. Higher production) full-size application. The aluminum wedged spacer is used on 'Birds and set up so that the front is thicker than the rear to level out the carb same as the engine.
    There's several subtle casting differences between the Galaxie-style 3-2v and T-Bird versions related to PCV ports and kickdown/throttle linkage bosses. Having a correct M-series setup to compare against the Galaxie-style one helps.
     
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  28. Ok here are pictures of the intake casting number and that wedge spacer. The carb has the C2 stamped on it also. 390 t bird 001.JPG 390 t bird 002.JPG 390 t bird 005.JPG t bird 390 003.JPG t bird 390 006.JPG
     
  29. Those pics are very helpful (and I had to get to a desktop computer instead of my phone to see them). Hard to read the casting date code that's between the engineering number and the base of the carb - looks like it's 1M9? That would indicate 1961 (1)-December (M) 9th day of month (or whatever it is - that's the hard part to see with all the crud on top of it), and the two dots in front of the '1' means second shift did the casting. Carb has C2SF- prefix stamped in it indicating it's for a T-bird application (I couldn't read the suffix after that - there are several that were used depending on when built), and air cleaner definitely is '61-'62 'Bird 4v. Spacer has the filled-in nub under the rear of the carb, meaning you've got an intake with a road draft tube and no PCV setup.
    More on intakes here from the VTCI Forum - the path below should take you to thread on '61 PCV, which evolved into ID discussions on different cast iron 4v intakes and PCV setups used in '61-'66 full-size and T-bird cars: you'll want to go through all the posts as there's information scattered through the thread re. dimensions, PCV setups, etc.
    https://www.vintagethunderbirdclub....f=6&t=11042&hilit=intake+manifold+engineering
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
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  30. Well, it’s official. Pulled the engine this morning. The crank has the little dog leg counterweight and the 1U to make it 4” stroke. The bottom end also looked really nice. I could not measure the bore, so it’s either a 410 or 428. Either way, I mark it a win in my book.

    Also, I noticed the block was a C6ME-A and the exhaust manifolds are D2’s...so the engine has been somewhat pieced together

    5A500EC6-6860-45D7-B61B-A95DA617EBFB.jpeg B68880F6-A38D-4388-86BD-241873B32AA9.jpeg FFAEF1D3-7064-48BC-8CEF-368AA34D9DB6.jpeg
    C80E313D-7D2A-43F1-9E47-3FDA7422FA84.jpeg
     

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