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Technical Ford FE: 352 or 428?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Chris, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. Man it's been a lot of years since I've worked on an FE. I have a 57 F-100 that I am tossing around the idea of a mean FE engine in. I found a truck for sale local (1965 F-350) that the seller claims had a 428 upgrade in the 70's. The original engine was a 352. Everything under the hood looks correct for a stock 352. I thought the harmonic balancer had an extra little counterweight on a 428, as they are externally balanced, but some reading I did said only the CJ engines had that. To all of you FE experts: short of measuring stroke or tearing the engine apart: is there a way to ID a 428 (or maybe just a 428 crank) visually? I thought I could by the damper, but I am not too sure now.

    CC321D5B-4A94-4D2D-B316-47705C32EFF9.jpeg 8AF29D61-E517-4105-8711-B2F544335DFA.jpeg 79585BB0-6F50-4FCA-93B3-7CFEAA8B55F9.jpeg 581F73BA-662D-440F-A10A-6FF436D8D9EB.jpeg
     
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  2. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 9,506

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    The 428 block will have a scratch in the casting on the back of the block. Can't remember what it is but it loos like it was scratched in the casting mold with a stick.
    And I found out that not all 428s are externally balanced.
     
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  3. deathrowdave
    Joined: May 27, 2014
    Posts: 1,774

    deathrowdave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NKy

    Is that a 2 barrel intake ? I have never seen anyone run a 2 barrel on a 428 , I have seen many 4100 Ford 4 barrels . This should be 99% of the fact finding mission . Look at exhaust manifold mounting flanges , early FE only had one set of bolts , later FEs 428 had 2 sets of flange bolt holes . My thoughts are the seller is trying to make a killing on your not knowing . I had a 66 428 cu in not a CJ or SCJ just 428 cu in , normal driving you will never know the difference in either cube . It’s complete , rebuild it , and enjoy it . My thoughts are the burden of proof is on the seller , if he can not prove to you it’s a 428 , then , It’s got to be a 352 and pay for it as such .
     
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  4. How do you do a 428 upgrade and not use 428 heads? Those don't look like 428 heads. They use a 4 bolt manifold per each exhaust port. You can run the 2 bolt manifolds but there is a bump at each port for the threaded boss near the Spark plug hole. Look close at this head.
    s-l1600.jpg You can see the bump for the bolt and I don't see any in the photo of your motor. Your right about a thicker balances not to say a machinest couldn't use an early 352 piece but,,,,,, I think he's giving ya Blow By.
     
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  5. R Pope
    Joined: Jan 23, 2006
    Posts: 3,310

    R Pope
    Member

    Tore down a few 428's, all were externally balanced. They are like Y-blocks, all are 312's till the heads come off!
     
  6. Jeff Norwell
    Joined: Aug 20, 2003
    Posts: 12,760

    Jeff Norwell
    MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    428 will have an "A" or an"X"on the back of the block..Not forged or cast.. looks welded.
    My 66 PI is Balanced via the flywheel.... i run a stick.No weights on the bottom damper pulley.
    Unless your digging into that engine or you have it apart.... (checking the bore size)... pretty tough to see from this standpoint.
    352?... look up who Karol Miller is......
     
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  7. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 4,039

    Marty Strode
    Member

    The flywheel will have an extra weight if it's a 410 Merc or 428, they have the same stroke. Is it a stick or auto ?
     
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  8. I would try to measure the stroke through the spark plug hole.
     
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  9. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 4,441

    anthony myrick
    Member
    from al

    every FE is not a 360 unless I own it
    check the flywheel if possible
    FEs are kinda like SBCs
    you can swap all kinds of parts between them
     
  10. flamedabone
    Joined: Aug 3, 2001
    Posts: 4,501

    flamedabone
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Lots of FEs will have 352 cast in the drivers front of the block by the water pump, don't let that freak you out. I think you should buy it, you don't have near enough cool stuff.....

    -Abone.
     
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  11. Jeff Norwell
    Joined: Aug 20, 2003
    Posts: 12,760

    Jeff Norwell
    MODERATOR
    Staff Member

  12. 57 300
    Joined: Jan 1, 2010
    Posts: 241

    57 300
    Member
    from Mn.

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  13. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 2,696

    Boneyard51
    Member

    It’s hard to tell 352 from a 428 externaly. The best way is to determine if there is the 28 ounce balancing weigh cast into the standard fly wheel or added to the auto flex plate. If there it still doesn’t 100% mean it’s a 428, it could be a 410.
    As with all Fords, you can never saw “always”. But if possible you can remove the front freeze plug and it will have 428 casts in small numbers at the base of the cylinders. You can also use the drill bit test, but I forget what size drill bit to use. Sucks getting old.
    Heads will tell you nothing for sure, may indicate a 428 if they have an N following the casting number. Those will be CJ heads, but a lot of 428s came with just standard heads also. CJ heads will have more than 8 exhaust bolts.
    Almost all 428 and 410s came with 4 barrel carbs.

    Bones
     
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  14. Sure looks like a '65 352 to me.... look here... https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/engine-articles/485052-easy-cid-measurement.html

    With that said, Ford did build some vanilla 428s for LTDs, etc that didn't have any of the 'special' hi-po bits. They even offered one in the pick-ups '69-72, but only in a 2WD with a C6. On these, they used a 'generic' damper but had the extra counterweight cast into the spacer that goes between the damper and the lower timing gear. If that weight is there, it'll be obvious. I don't see it in your pics...

    But a bit more bait... IIRC, the '65 352 truck blocks were the last ones built by Ford that supposedly could take an overbore to the 4.13" 406/428 size (after checking for core shift). That nugget is from an article I remember seeing about building a budget 428 in the late '60s/early '70s. YMMV....
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
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  15. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 2,696

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Dave, I usually agree with you on most things, but.... I think the difference between the 352 and the 428 are dramatic! I own a 352, 360, 390, 410, and two 428s. The 410 and 428s are awesome, really pull. The others not so much. I think that extra stroke makes the difference.



    Bones
     
  16. mgtstumpy
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 7,569

    mgtstumpy
    Member

    This is what was referred to in post #4, note NS, EW bolt pattern of 428CJ -vs- normal FE bolt pattern heads below. There are are a few other variations with 390GT heads
    [​IMG]

    Depending on YOM, Ford commenced stamping partial numbers on rear of block
    upload_2018-12-28_10-38-34.png

    Also block casting date may assist on underside of oil filter adapter
    upload_2018-12-28_10-39-50.png upload_2018-12-28_10-47-8.png
    https://www.428cobrajet.org/id-block 15/64" drill bit is mentioned here.

    No 2v 428 according to Wiki

    upload_2018-12-28_10-41-34.png

    FE blocks before 1965 had two-bolt engine mounts while those from 1965 and later had three-bolt engine
    mounts. 65 and later FEs had the alternator boss cast into block on passenger side
    upload_2018-12-28_10-58-3.png
     
  17. Some truck blocks had four motor mount bosses...
     
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  18. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 9,506

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    The one I am involved with had a C on the back of the block.
    It is a 2 bolt main with the 3 webs.
    Now it is a 467 inch engine, still in the progress of building it and the car.
     
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  19. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 13,870

    Squablow
    Member

    I have a Torino with what is supposed to be a '67 Thunderbird 428 in it and everyone I've asked said the only way to tell for sure is to take it apart or drop the oil pan. My engine has a lot of clear, readable casting numbers on it but none are definitive, so I'll be watching this thread, hopefully someone will come up with a good way to ID it.

    Would measuring the stroke through a spark plug hole work?
     
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  20. Link in post #14....
     
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  21. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 13,870

    Squablow
    Member

    Bookmarked, thanks!
     
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  22. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 2,696

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Steve that counter weight is behind the timing cover, a person would have to remove the cover to see it. Also it was only used on the SCJ engines to counter balance the larger rods and bolts, unique to 428 SCJ engines, the rarest of 428 engines.




    Bones
     
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  23. Below is how the ad reads. The owner is NOT a car guy at all, I think he really thinks its has a 428...I’m actually surprised he knew the cubic inch. He says he has “documentation” of the “conversion”. By conversion, I’m guessing if anything, it had a 428 rotating assembly put in it. Heads are standard C4AE’s, everything looks stone stock 1965. The truck has a new process 4 speed.

    The problem with the truck is, it’s a really nice truck. I have no need for it, and pulling the engine out would kind of kill it unless you had another engine to pit in it. The truck is really cheap, I don’t tuink the owner is trying to “cash in” on the 428 part. I’m not going to want to go through the trouble for a 352. For a 428 I would...sounds like it’s somewhat of a gamble until I decide to get dedicated.

    FE961762-FF0D-4F56-B741-F13BC1872BA3.jpeg 8E931E79-941A-4DB7-A438-D1F20930DC0A.jpeg C6802DDC-0474-418B-822A-C24DACFA380D.jpeg 1A2C0F35-A50C-40DC-8016-105EEB7C135B.png
     
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  24. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 4,441

    anthony myrick
    Member
    from al

    thought Ford stopped building the 'wrong beds' in 63

    anyway iy has a lot of nice parts to get rid of
     
  25. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 2,696

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Chris, at some point in time some one spent some money on that truck. Custom bed, Warn winch and bumper. That tends to lead me to believe the owner a little more. That winch on the front of the truck is a highly sought after winch in the 4x4 crowd. Would be worth some bucks if it’s working, would still have value if not. Cab looks solid.



    Bones
     
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  26. Through 65 or 66 for 4WD and weird wheelbase trucks...like this one
     
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  27. flamedabone
    Joined: Aug 3, 2001
    Posts: 4,501

    flamedabone
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    That thing is bitchn'. You are a wuss if you don't buy it.

    -Abone.
     
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  28. B Ramsey
    Joined: Mar 29, 2009
    Posts: 614

    B Ramsey
    Member

    Here is the crowd that's interested in the winch. If it comes available.
     
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  29. Any idea of a window of value? If I buy it and the engine gets pulled...unfortunately I’ll probably part it out. The truck is cool...but I looked up the gears (Dana 70) and I bet top speed is 45-50
     
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  30. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 4,441

    anthony myrick
    Member
    from al

    the hood doors grille and cab would sell fast
    the fenders are 3/4 and 1 ton items
    good inner fenders and radiator supports are getting hard to find
    the old 6 lug stuff, well, most folks try to swap those out for 8 lug products
     

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