The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by HRS, May 1, 2017.
Felony schmelony, so long as he doesn't intend to break the law, it's all good. I saw it on the TV.
Only prosecuting attorney and the judge/jury get to decide if you had intent. By the time you get to that point, you have already been to jail, you've already paid to hire a lawyer, and your car is already impounded.
There have been many more than I have time to count built by a piece here and a piece there . Seems as if the government forces us to do bad things at times .You bought and paid for the frame , it doesn't have a number , ok you have a title that has been checked no stolen report . So now you can not assemble and enjoy your treasures because title and frame don't match ? Give me the stamps I'll stamp it for you , enjoy the hobby , its way better way to live than being a junkie lookin to steal a car to support an illegal Hamitic ! I have had many of old Harleys that had case numbers changed because a connecting rod ventilated the OEM case . The new case was ground clean and numbers set same as old case and never loooked back ! So if that's illegal I guess I'm guilty , but the only person that knows , it was done on the up and up is me , I answer to him everyday when shaving lookin in the mirror .
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All of the suggestions to stamp the frame are valid and make perfect sense....the issue lies within if the number you choose happens to already be registered...that's where the trouble starts.
Seems a lot easier to simply find a frame with good numbers and be done with it.
That is the rub. You CAN replace a frame. That is a perfectly valid replacement part.
It is when you are attempting to use a serial/VIN associated with one vehicle, with another vehicle, either on purpose, or by accident.
Only fools and criminals risk prison over something that can be done legally, with a little paperwork.
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In Ohio if you stamp a frame to match a historical document.
I.E purchased swap meet title. It will go to the scrapper.
They don't play with VIN's at all. But you can get the DVM to assign at VIN for a new frame and body.
It seems to me that a frame w/o a serial # would pose less of a problem for the DMV that one with a serial # and no title. Could you not take photos of all the components you intend to use in your build, then go to the DMV and apply for a "built up" title? Then affix the ID tag (and/or stamp the assigned ID # on the frame) assigned by the DMV as per Gimpshotrods comments above. As other posters asked, what's the difference between an "original" frame w/o a serial # and an aftermarket frame? BTW, when you go to the DMV, plan on spending some time, or scheduling an appointment with a supervisor. Believe it or not, the DMV does not exist to hassle you unnecessarily, but an issue like this is way out of day-in, day-out routine business and will require approval from above.
You just get the state to issue a modern replacement VIN number. Simple. Here you need a complete running car with all material receipts and numbers for the drive train. The State Police inspect the paper work and car in your garage. Then stamp the frame in a couple places and put a blue sticker on the body. Then you apply for a new title with your new VIN. It is up to the State Trooper what year the car is during his inspection. Depends on how much new there is to which year it will be. A 1932 or a SCV 2017.
Again, lots of options of varying risk and reward. I still think the easiest way is to find a frame with good numbers...you are so much further ahead of the game then.
Good numbers + third party verification = clean title in your name, with proper manufacturer date (which is critical in CA for smog)
Did you look at the frame where the cowl would sit? There may be a number that's buried in rust. Even so, Model A's were registered by the engine number (same as frame number) since the frame number could not be seen with the body on.
Thirty five years ago I had a '32 in my shop for some work.
The rivets in the crossmembers looked different than any I'd seen.
I asked the long time owner about the frame.
He told me he bought it years before from Ford as a replacement frame !
I really looked it over, no numbers & a few other small differences !
So they do exist !
In TEXAS, you can get it stamped at the local dmv.
Do they allow that in commiefornia?
They issue a tamper evident decal.
It's not actually hard to do.
And---getting the seller to give you some sort of bill of sale for the frame would be an important step toward registration.
Late '80s. The stigma still carries on. When the Fed comes in and closes literally every used car lot in town for investigation it leaves a lasting impression.
Actually intent is hard to prove which is why in a country that throws a reasonable doubt clause into the mix has a very hard time convicting one of perjury.
A lot of what is being done in one state works in that state and not in another. Sometimes the possession is nine points of the law comes into play, not in all states mind you. Example, if two people have titles in Missouri with the same numbers the one who is first to transfer title wins. The state doesn't go inspecting anyone's numbers, and the cost of litigation makes it unsurmountable in most cases to win the battle.
hat is not the case everywhere. So take what I have said with a grain of salt.
I guess it varies state to state, but the process in Iowa is straightforward and relatively easy. And unless your VIN numbered frame comes with a title, the process is the same whether the frame is marked with a VIN or not.
My 30 has no numbers and no rust in that area. The block number is on the title. There's no assembly plant stamps on the body cross member either.
Bingo.....bonded title solves all woes...ok...the politicos just want a piece of the pie....your pie.....pie..pie in the sky....
Grumpy when the government changes from being the problem to working to solving the problem this kind of stuff will persist . In the case you mentioned if every thing turns out ok the citizen becomes the victim . there seams to be no consequence if you (government) errors.
If you look on the left hand door jam between the hinges, you can see the tamper-proof sticker applied by the VIN inspector in Colorado. Went the bonded title route.....no problems
This is such a tough topic. I'll start with intent.
I do shady bought title bullshit a dozen or more times, intent to make a profit by what's really a minor defraud to the buyer, assuming I actually know what I'm doing and not a "chop shop". I do it once in the name of restoration maybe 35 years ago, now my kid has the car and swaps it to his name. Intent to create an heirloom, or a car my family can enjoy.
Risk is the other factor. Shady Sherman's title service probably throws caution to the wind but when they close junk yards they know good ol Sherm is the guy to sell all those police book titles to. Where do you think they come from? The other risk is what you're doing it to. As valuable and popular as they seem our early Ford stuff is a limited market. A 55-6-7 Chevy? A Camaro, Mustang, Charger? All over the auction TV shows lately and now in the minds of the gotta-have-it types. Exponentially more popular. I won't even use Vettes, too complicated what with re-stamps, survivors, NCRS and other judging standards, well fuck that.
But now I find myself in a situation where I have to decide what to do from a matter of cost, honesty, comfort, low risk, insurability too. Right hand raised, I never fucked anyone out of anything, not as little as a trim screw or as big as a whole car. Nothing. 45 years of this disease and no cure, I have to live with more than that. There's that asshole over the top of my bathroom sink every morning. And he IS an asshole, a dick, an unwavering fuck that tells me to do the right thing if I expect to stay in this shit. Have I ever stamped a number? You bet. The last 3 on a Model A I built decades ago. Why? I had a fucked up frame so I repaired it. Did I break the law? I say no. Same number on the title, the engine, who did I defraud? Nobody. Let's talk Packard. I have a new data tag since the original has 2 holes in it from a heater and radio installed. The font is different from the factory, the sales agency and sale date are mercilessly stamped in at the dealer back then. Some were thoughtful and removed it, stamped it nice, then replaced it. Several just blasted it on in place, got the firewall all mullered up too. I use the different fonts as was done, but in the file or indeed the glovebox on some cars (owner's choice) that tag is there.
I sort of agree that we may be soft targets sometimes. One town here gets a shit ton of revenue from writing tickets for historic plates at a cruise night. It's not a "sanctioned" event, just the day everyone shows up. $100+ ticket. Yet they have to prove you didn't just do a brake job, rebuild a carb, need to run it some because you're heading out that weekend to a sanctioned event. Most roll over and pay the no-point ticket, I'd tell the cop to go fuck himself. Fraud there too? Of course my paper trail is always in tip top order, and frankly I don't do historic plates for that reason alone. Too old for the hassel.
I agree, some states do take all this shit really serious, but the cost of enforcement should match the offense, the cost to the "victim" less than his alleged "crime". We live in a grey area 24/7 because we choose what we drive for reasons most don't care about and none will give credence to. we call ourselves "hoodlums" for aesthetic reasons not because we really are. Hey, that's my story so I can tell it my way. Intent, risk, more than anything, LOGIC. Someone I know had a chance to buy a title for a car that was all new. "DON'T DO IT." was my advice. It hasn't cost him a dime more and it's now properly insured too. I did say logic, right.
As always, your results may vary, no purchase necessary, VOID WHERE PROHIBITED, see your DMV for details.
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