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Technical Ford 6 id help

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by neilswheels, May 31, 2019.

  1. neilswheels
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 650

    neilswheels
    Member
    from England

    ive just bought a 65 Ranchero that has a ‘different’ straight 6 in it. I’m trying to buy a replacement fuel pump, but not being able to I D the engine means I can’t. The only number I can find on it is this one, at the back of the block on the drivers side. Any ideas? This is the current pump, on the left, and the replacement which should be for a 65 mustang, which is what I was told the engine is from
     

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  2. Doublepumper
    Joined: Jun 26, 2016
    Posts: 492

    Doublepumper
    Member

    Looks like the pump on the left is for cars with vacuum wipers (vacuum ports with the hose loop) and the one on the right is for cars with electric wipers.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  3. If the mounting flange and pump arm are the same it will fit. the old pump you pictured is a dual diaphragm pump the top part pumps vacuum for the wipers on older vehicles.
     
  4. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,998

    squirrel
    Member

    the tag looks like it's from an engine rebuilding company, or perhaps an engine number assigned by ????, and is quite useless for identifying what type of engine it is.

    But if you hold the camera back a ways, so we can see the whole engine, maybe we could help you. And take pictures of both sides, from a few different angles.
     
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  5. oldiron 440
    Joined: Dec 12, 2018
    Posts: 1,189

    oldiron 440
    Member

    An overall picture of the motor would help.
     
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  6. Mr T body
    Joined: Nov 2, 2005
    Posts: 2,070

    Mr T body
    Alliance Vendor
    from SoCal

    The 144/170ci engines have 3 water jacket freeze plugs which are visible directly below the exhaust manifold, while the 200/250ci engine have 5 freeze plugs. Up to 1964 144/170 engines a engine code was stamped next to the road draft boss.... 144=N, 170= T.
     
  7. If the bellhousing is a 6 bolt pattern the same as a late 289 or 302 its a 250
     
  8. 1930artdeco
    Joined: Oct 25, 2011
    Posts: 20

    1930artdeco
    Member

    The pump on the right looks like a direct replacement for the one I had on my 66 200 that was in my mustang. It is possible the other pump came out of a car with vacuum wipers originally.

    Mike
     
  9. v8flat44
    Joined: Nov 13, 2017
    Posts: 279

    v8flat44

    I'm think'n 2oo like i had in a 65 Mustang. But like the others, a full pic would help.
     
  10. neilswheels
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 650

    neilswheels
    Member
    from England

    Thanks for chiming in everyone. I realise that the old pump has vacuum take off for wipers, and i'm guessing 65ish Mustangs were electric, so that bit doesnt make much sense, althouggh the pump could have been swaped, but the new pumps arm is at a different angle to the old pump, which I'm assuming means I cant use it on this engine.

    While hunting for an engine number, I only saw 3 core plugs below the exhaust, but i'll check that, and road draft boss, where would that be? I dont think this has a road draft, having just looked at this on my 348, my understanding is a road draft tube is basically a vent from the engine down to the road to let out any oil vapour etc, this engine has a pipe from the oil filler to the air filter, although the mounting for a road draft must be there, I dont know where to look. I found a pump that looks the same on line being sold as a 55-57 ford, would that tie in with 144/170?
    I'll take more pics today and upload them., but right now its looking like a 144/170, despite the sticker on the airfilter.
     
  11. Possibly the old dual diaphragm pump is the wrong pump for your engine.?Someone might have swapped it on and it kinda worked? as long as the cam can move the lever up and down it would work in a fashion. If the new pump will fit without force and isn't binding I would try it.
     
  12. Does it have a PCV system? if so. it won't have a draft tube. I have seen fuel pumps for a certain motor that have the arms shaped differently, as long as they ride on the cam I guess it does not matter.
     
  13. deathrowdave
    Joined: May 27, 2014
    Posts: 1,966

    deathrowdave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NKy

    Toss the old style pump . Use the new style pump and be done . There is no reason or use for the second diaphragm in today’s world , it was not used on the engine you are working on . The mounting flange is the same on many Ford cars, the arm to contact the cam is where the difference is at in the pumps . As stated , someone may have taken a pump from an early car installed it to keep the engine running . I’m thinking the early Falcon used vacuum wipers and this maybe where the pump started it’s service life , possibly your engine also . If I am thinking correctly 140 , 170 had a 5 bolt belhousing and 200 shared the V8 pattern with later 6 bolts . Do not remember so well it’s been years . A few photos could greatly help solve the wandering for you .
     
  14. My 1966 Bronco had the ever powerful 170 six and it had vacuum wipers. The pump could have been from something like that.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  15. neilswheels
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 650

    neilswheels
    Member
    from England

    Here’s some pics. It’s mounted on a c4 . The truck never had vacuum wipers. It is a 3 core plug block. The carb has an ‘open’ brass fitting that I’ve been told would be for a charcoal type filter, but it’s not connected and there’s no such filter.
    The new pump face/block mount is the same, but that arm is at a very different angle, how would I even know if it’s on the cam, I really don’t want to be tearing the engine down because something breaks.
     

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  16. uncle buck
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 1,495

    uncle buck
    Member

    The 144,170,and 200 all had the intake and cylinder head cast as one piece as your engine has. The 240,250,and 300 all have a bolt on intake manifold. As someone mentioned, it looks like your engine is most likely out of an early Bronco with vacuum wipers and a 170 or 200. The arm design I have seen vary from different pump manufacturers. The contact area is still basically in the same location on the arm and you will be fine with using the 65 Mustang 200 fuel pump you bought. Bolt it up loosely with the 2 mounting bolts and push it against the block and you will feel the diaphragm movement. Remember that it will look like it is mounted upside down from most mechanical pumps. The filter housing will be pointed up. The road draft tube should be mounted in front of the distributor/oil filter. It looks like someone tried making some kind of crankcase ventilation system with that brass and copper mess in the rear top of the valve cover.and they may have put a plug in the block where the draft tube goes Do yourself a favor and get a later valve cover from a 66-68 mustang 6 cylinder with a proper pcv hole and get rid of that mess.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
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  17. Relic Stew
    Joined: Apr 17, 2005
    Posts: 1,117

    Relic Stew
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    The 250 still had the integral intake, at least on the US version. It's a tall deck version of the 144,170,200 block with small block bell pattern. Other than the bell pattern and crank-flywheel flange, it has nothing in common with the big six.

    The Australians did make a 250 head with separate intake that will bolt on the US engine, if your intent on a performance small six.
     
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  18. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,998

    squirrel
    Member

    see on top of the intake manifold, there is a series of numbers/letters that stats C3.... (at least that's what I think it is?). that's the engineering number, and will tell you what year that design head was first used, in this case 1963. Also see the 4M3 code? that's the casting date code, and tells you that particular head was cast the 4th year of the decade (1964), the last month of the year (December) and the 3rd day of the month. So, the head is off a 1965 model year engine.

    The block should have the same type of numbers cast into it, and they will tell you what engine you have, somewhat.

    Anyways, if that new pump you bought is really for a 1965 Mustang with a SIX, then it should fit your engine and work ok.

    No telling how the other pump got on there, but my guess is someone installed whatever pump they could find, because finding the correct parts for old American cars over there is not easy, and they needed to get it going.
     
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  19. uncle buck
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 1,495

    uncle buck
    Member

    I was wrong. Now that you mention it, the 250 head I remember looking at was an Australian version.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  20. neilswheels
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 650

    neilswheels
    Member
    from England

    The contact area is still basically in the same location on the arm and you will be fine with using the 65 Mustang 200 fuel pump you bought. Bolt it up loosely with the 2 mounting bolts and push it against the block and you will feel the diaphragm movement. Remember that it will look like it is mounted upside down from most mechanical pumps. The filter housing will be pointed up


    So the pump will be the opposite way up to the way it is in the pic I posted?


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app[/QUOTE]
    So will the pump be
     
  21. neilswheels
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 650

    neilswheels
    Member
    from England

    Thanks Squirrel, the trucks only been here 1year, but you never know what the history is of this stuff. I’ll look for other numbers, but that’s very helpful, thanks, and will the filter on the new pump be on top, so opposite way up to the picture I posted??
     
  22. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,998

    squirrel
    Member

    The mounting flange has the bolt holes offset, it should only fit one way....
     
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  23. neilswheels
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 650

    neilswheels
    Member
    from England

    Some better pics now I know what to take. The c3 is c5, so I assume 1965 date, and then there’s the numbers on the opposite side of the block above the pan CIDE 6015 A, and the other 4 just to the left below the coil mount, 2B12.
    Found the road draft tube, obvious really, but someone has welded a bracket on the head just above the tube to support power steering brackets, as the holes in the head for this aren’t there. So no clues from that
     

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  24. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,998

    squirrel
    Member

    looks like a 1965 head on a 1962 block. Interesting.
     
  25. neilswheels
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 650

    neilswheels
    Member
    from England

    Oh joy.. so, pump wise, can I use this 65 6 cylinder pump I’ve brought??
     
  26. neilswheels
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 650

    neilswheels
    Member
    from England

    I was talking to a friend about this, he thought it might be an f100 motor, would a 65 head fit a 62 f100 block? Rockauto list a very different pump for an f100.
     
  27. neilswheels
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 650

    neilswheels
    Member
    from England

    Looking a bit more , 62 Econolines had a 170, pump much closer to my original one but with no wiper vacuum...
     
  28. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 16,418

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    It all fits. I have a 1984 250 head, on a 1966 200 block.

    Based on the block, and the fuel pump, it is a 144, or a 170. There IS a fairly rare early-style 200, with three freeze plugs, but it was not a C1 (1961) part.

    It is not unusual to have mixed parts on these engines, especially when they have been to a re-builder.

    A ton of stuff interchanges, from 144, all the way to 250.

    This is a Falcon-6. It was never used in an F100.
     
  29. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,998

    squirrel
    Member

    The engine you have is the compact 6 cylinder engine, used in the early Econolines, falcons, and mustangs, and some other cars later on. The F100 used the big six, such as the 240 and 300. They are a lot larger, and look quite different (no integral intake manifold, for one thing)
     
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  30. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 16,418

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    Is that fuel pump bad? Those are for sale.
     

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