Foolin' with 4 Jugs...The April 2012 Banger Meet

Wow, not much "bang" in here on the banger thread last couple days. At least I will be helping Rich with the next step on the Dodge tomorrow.

 

You got some pretty cool parts hanging around in your shop there Zen!!

Ron

 

Thanks youngster. One day I will try to photograph all my junk, I might scare myself into gearhead rehab though. I never knew how much stuff I had till I went through a divorce. I mean it is pretty bad. Then I thought......hmmm............I need to make good on some of this promise now. I mean I have the stuff but I have to get something built now.

 

cool
want to sell your drawing of that wink... wink....
tk

 

OK banger guys, I have a simple idea for pressure to the mains of an A block and am looking for some input on my idea. Please let me know what you think or if you know anyone who has already tried this.

My understanding is that the rod dippers supply significant pressure to the rod bearings - I have read as little as 40 psi and as high as 80 psi. My idea is to use a drilled crank to supply oil pressure from the dippers to the main bearings. Let's call it "reverse pressure" since it is flowing the opposite direction of a drilled B crank.

The pressure from the dippers would pulse a little, but as the RPMs come up I think things would smooth out. I think the babbit would have to be grooved with this in mind, I am thinking a single ring in the rod babbit that aligns the hole in the crank with the dipper hole. That way each pulse of oil through the dipper would be able to travel up the hole in the crank.

The babbit in the mains would require similar consideration, I envision a ring groove that lines up with the crank hole so the pressure is evenly dispersed through the bearing.

The center main would receive pressure from two dippers, which is good since it is the most delicate area.

To prove my idea works, I would need to measure the psi at the main bearings. I propose to do this by tapping the 3 tubes that connect to the main bearings and attaching an oil pressure gauge through the side cover. It is likely the pressure at the center main will be different from the front and rear since it will be supplied by two dippers.

Depending upon the psi readings, it might be desireable to attach a pressure relief valve to one or all of these tubes. It also might be useful to regulate the rear main pressure down so that it doesn't push too hard on the rear main seal. By the way, I think a modern rear seal would be a requirement with this setup.

So what do you think, am I onto something? Constructive criticism is welcome. By the way, I am not an engine builder and haven't been able to think of any way I could profit from this idea.

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

 

I think the fundamental issue here would be volume and timing. By opening up a passage for oil to move away from the rod bearing you would effectively eliminate the oil "cushion " in the rod bearings. It would cavitate in my thinking.

The pressure and volume of oil from the dippers would not be enough to also supply the oil to create the proper oil cushion in the mains.

My $0.02
.

 

How do older performance carbs perform compared to the modern ones. Lets take three examples A pair of SR Winfields, A pair of SUs and one of those Webber twin choke conversions?

 

Send me your Winfields and I will report back in a couple of years, when I've done the "testing "!!

 

Compare these. First pair BB S's on riley 2 port 84 MPH. Second pair BB SR's 82 MPH 1/4 mile

 

Gee Will, you are a glutton for punishment. I mean, you haven't given up yet after all of them old purists on the barn ripped your idea this morning. If you are going to drill the crank, which I think is the hardest part, go ahead and plumb it! Use the converted early flathead V8 pump that has built in pressure relief and plumb the bearings like Urb Stair did. He ran the Great American race with his plumbing. He describes his method in the Restorer #5.

 

At that point you might as well put in standard bearings.

J

 

Got a B engine sitting in the garage that is drilled for pressure to the rods, so I am covered. I actually don't have a problem with a stock babbit rebuild and I think counterbalanced cranks are overrated, LOL.

It was an idea I had while building mandolins, seemed like it could be an elegant solution to a problem that lots of folks have contemplated. But as my Dad so eloquently put it, "So what?"

The funniest thing to me about the Barn are the guys who ask why you are thinking about it in the first place. We all have fun in this hobby in different ways, this is how I had fun today.

Thanks for your thoughts Just Plain Bill, I was hoping to hear from you.

Will

 

Sure glad I didn't let you down.

Going back to the late 50's and the early 60's I had the good fortune to work with an old engineer that graduated about 1910 when automobiles were relatively new. He spoke of many experiments and modifications and thinking back to that time all I can remember was he spoke of increasing the size of the dipper and the oil passage. In the late 40's down in old Argentina the engine builders were running the Chevy's to 7000 RPMS these were dip and squirt oiling systems. Mains didn't seem to concern them. I think, after many hours of listening to and reading much BS, the problem is a weak flexible crankshaft working the center main. If, I believe, you would create a system of locating pin or pins, oversize main bolts as suggested by Riley and or heavier caps, to keep the center main from moving, the main would/could last longer. Back in the 50's 60's I ran my 29 RPU Balls out, just kept oil in it. Pulled that engine down a few years back and I wouldn't have been afraid to pull some shims on the mains and renew the other stuff and it would have been a runner Of course it had been rebuilt by a master mechanic back in the 50's. You youngsters have to understand speed limit was 55 so an A could and would keep up!

 

Will--

I certainly hope that you carry through with your experiment- I for one would be VERY interested in what kind of pressure (if any) would be produced.

One thing to note-- there is (in my feeble mind) a world of difference between the Ford dipper in a trough, and Chevy's dipper with a stream of oil pointed at it. While the Chevy rod would probably see some buildup of pressure from the impact of the oil into the dipper at speed, I doubt that there is any such thing with the Ford arrangement.

Why? Because at high speed the troughs have very little oil in them. What little gets there via drainage off the crankcase walls is immediately beat into an oil vapor, or fog, which fills the whole crankcase. This eventually "condenses" on any unmoving part--in this case the walls, and runs down, and the cycle continues. The oil that spills from the valve chest to the front of the rod trough tray, would favor number one rod because there would be more volume there, obviously, but I doubt that that trough (let alone the other three) would be anything like full, at speed.

Babbit is a very forgiving bearing material--IF its limits are observed. Stay below a certainly bearing temperature-- speed = heat, which can be removed with a constant flow of oil-- and it's deformation pressure--too much load will cause it to distort which means that the clearances increase, causing hammering (knocking) which beats the babbit material causing more distortion---a failure mode that happens very quickly.

However--If you stay below the limits imposed by the material, a babbit bearing will run quite well with only a slight bit of lubrication. Many machine tools had, in former years, babbit bearings that practically ran forever with only an occasional drop of oil. It is because of this, that the Ford system works at all.

Just my unsupported opinion.

Herb

 

Would really like to run the Winfields. So if anyone has an intake like the one in this photo I am interested.

 

I have some castings that were made from original Riley patterns that can be modified to fit A or B block This is not an advertisement, it is just information.

 

"headers" came back from the welder

Here is Rich marking where he wants the sensors for exhaust gas temp





Then we drilled the holes and the "headers" will be headed out to get jet hot coated black

Here are some pics









We reattached the primer pump and ran the fuel lines for the priming system.

Rich had attached the last fuel line for the main injectors

Rich also made the valve cover gasket

We made the spark plug wires the right length and put them on

Pretty much getting to doing some minor wiring before we are ready to fire the engine

Couple pics

 

North west speedsters have some good articles on the carbs on their website similar manifolds are avaliable at banger parts suppliers.

 

Could you post a link to these suppliers?

 

Why not just make an intake?

 

Dan Price used to make one like I am looking for but says he hasn't made any for awhile now and if I want one it would be a swap meet find. I haven't seen any suppliers selling dual Winfield intakes. As far as making one if I can't find something then thats what I will do.

 

Hi there

I have this junky B that was used in a boat. It's rusted thin and has a big crack in front and missing a piece of the water. But I thought it might be fixable. Since I'm drilling all my cranks now I took it apart to get the crank out. found out it has cracks around the valve guides so it is junk for sure. Tha crank was pretty bad too. But there was a pleasent surprise. I nevere really looked at it before but when I started removing the oil pan I noticed it was differnt from a normal B. It's a cast aluminium pan. I've heard rumors about them but never seen one and I actually had one myself. Here's some pics of it next to a G28T pan. It has some repairs, but pretty decent anyway. I think I'll polish it..... then paint it flat black and use it. No not really. I spent some time building an intake too.

Just Plain Bill >> Could you tell me more about the Riley intake? What needs to be done to make it fit an A/B? Does it have the correct port spacing? ANd for the record, I'm also interested in a dual Winfield intake. Think the look so damn cool. I have one of the Dan Price intakes for dual 2 barrels, but the 1 barrel version just have the look.

//Magnus

 

Do you have any better pics of this intake?

 

Sorry, I've busted the lens on my camera. But I tried to get some better pics.

The carbs sits pretty far out to the right. But I think it looks kind of cool.

 

Dan Price use to sell them or try [email protected]

 

He also makes Kiwi Quickchanges

 

And here I thought the Durant/Star Four was the banger of choice for boat builders.

Great score on the oil pan.

 

I remember Dan Price single down drafts for Winfield but not duals. I bought Miller dual Stromberg downdraft from Kiwi quick change. If, at that time, I could have found a dual downdraft manifold for Winfield's I wouldn't have gone to the trouble of locating the patterns and having some cast. I only wanted one.

These manifolds were designed for the original 2 port Riley B head, each head size had a manifold sized for it. The B size manifold has, if I remember correctly, 1 5/8" ports and apparently was sized for Winfield BB's although there is quite a bit of extra material on the carb flanges. The important difference is the mounting hole spacing. The original Riley has the mounting holes closer together than the A or B. The original Riley use 3/8" size bolts or studs. I have machined one to fit the A or B block and had planned to use 7/16" Allen nuts rather than clear it for regular nuts. I also figured out a linkage to work with the stock A, actually a way or place to mount a boss to hold a pivot. I use the term "original" Riley because I understand Mr Yapp uses stock AB spacing for attaching the Scalded Dog and other aftermarket manifolds to the C Yapp Riley 2 port head.
I do fabricate my side draft manifolds as well as my side draft adapters.

 

Bill I stand corrected then I think the manifolds manufactured here are for the A/B bolt pattern thanks for pointing that out. Rusty

 

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m541/Rex_A_Lott/Rex_A_Lott/Head Pics/Winfieldtop.jpg
http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m541/Rex_A_Lott/Rex_A_Lott/Head Pics/WinfieldCC.jpg
http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m541/Rex_A_Lott/Rex_A_Lott/Head Pics/Winfield8to1.jpg
http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m541/Rex_A_Lott/Rex_A_Lott/Head Pics/100_2607a.jpg
http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m541/Rex_A_Lott/Rex_A_Lott/Head Pics/100_2610a.jpg
Last Month someone asked about the currently available Winfield repops. These are some pics I took of the heads and the chambers.
The crowsfoot chamber was marked as a 7:1 and I cc'ed it at 120cc.
The other was marked as a 8.5:1 and I found it to be 86cc.
Hope this helps someone