FMC 460 vs. GMC 454 vs. MOPAR 440 ?

you could use the 454 block, a 502 crank and bore it .60 over and you'll end up with a four ninety something...

 

Does nobody READ these posts before commenting??? Notice how he said VERY LOW BUDGET and that he has found donor trucks with the said engines. Sounds to me that he is looking just to buy one of these engines and just wants to know of these engines found in pickups which one is more powerful in stock form.

All of them make great torque and your decision should depend on what vehicle it's going into.

 

429 or 460 blocks are plentiful and you can build very inexpensive horse power using mostly stock parts. The block itself is about as tough as you can get which allows things to hold together under even higher horse power.

69 to 73 Tbirds came with 429's and featured excellent heads with 2.25 valves and huge ports. Those factory heads can easily be ported and will sustain weeeelll over 500 hp of breathing (600+ ft/lbs torque) with all stock parts (right down to factory pistons) . There are lots of tbirds out in the fields, the best of the best is the 70 or 71 engines but 69, 72 or 73 are not very far behind. I like the 70/71 because they had hydralic cams while some would prefer the 69 (earlier) mechanical..

For a few extra $$ you can stroke the living daylights out of it and smoke any 454 ever made.
Think of it this way, Piston, rings and bearings for any of the big 3 will run you ~$700 or you could add another $1000 and get a scat stroker kiit (of your choice up to 572 cubes). That 'extra' $1000 over and above pistons/rings/bearings could easily put you into the 700++ hp range. That is inexpensive and Reliable horse power that the other can't touch, not in that price range and defiantly not in the horse power range..

460's are not an expensive engine to build horse power out of, real Reliable horse power using stock heads and parts which is difficult with a 454 with or without the so called "4 bolt mains" (460's have stronger internal webbing and will take more punishment than the so called 454 '4 bolt' stuff)
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i,d go with the 454 chevy if cost is a factor and you want to drop in and go if you have tons of money then pick what you like and put $$$$$$$$$$ make it go as fast as you want

 

for cheap and different. a 455 ols will bolt right in the chevy pickups from 73-83 all you need are the desiel fram mounts.

 

what about looks? anyone have pics of these installed in an engine bay? just wondering..

 

"""There was an article in Car Craft or Super Stock magazine about 20+ years ago asking the same question. Their challenge was to build a 454 BBC, 440 BBM and a 460 BBF all to make 500HP with limited modifications etc. The 460 BBF came out on top with a very basic OEM parts combination with the usual street/strip cam, intake, exhaust massaging etc. The BBC and BBM fell short of 500HP with the same types of modifications. """???????????

Excuse me!! Hello!
The mopar won with 511 hp and was built by pro parts (Bill Bagshaw)
It was a very basic motor . L2355F pistons from 440 sixpack. mildly ported heads and a MP 509 cam.
I built a not too far off that combo for years called Old Reliable or The OR build. (Chrysler Power magazine articles in mid nineties) That engine with a race cam would produce up to 560 HP depending on the head work. They are still a competitive combo. In fact Paul Amado of Kitamt BC Canada just cleaned house last weekend with this exact combo winning Super pro. Still a very v competitive combo capable of winning on any gven day and super reliable. Paul actually street drives his as well. The last few I have done with KB pistons of similar compression ratio. I screwed the last one together for a young lad in Ottawa four weeks ago. Chryslers at Carlise winner Bill Parsons. (black 64 Dodge 2 dr hrtp) also has one in his car.
Don

 

everybody has his/her own favorite brand/make etc. so make your decision on what works for you and your budget. if you are going on the cheap,either of the 3 will work great even the low compression smog-era motors parked in a smaller/lighter chassis than the heavy pig trucks they came in. on the cheap low-end budgeted path,the brute torque and stone reliability of either the 3,with modest carb/intake/headers will be more than enough for some fun spirited driving. the next step up to making more power with either will be a major chunk of coin regardless of the brand. i mean,if you can pick up any of the 3 late 70's pick-ups for a $1000, and plan on yanking the engine/trans, cleaning up,and slightly upgrading the intake,carb,mild cam,headers,you are in the $2000 range total (new carb,new intake,new cam,new headers) alot cheaper if you can accquire used parts.
now,if you are going to move forward to better heads,alot more cam,pistons,crank,rods,machine work,etc,etc. than the budget starts heading up quickly no matter whether it's a ford,mopar,or chevy.
most would like to build and drive stuff on a $50.00 steak dinner everynight mentality,but most have to work on a mickey D's dollar menu budget.
build what you like,build what you can afford,but,most importantly,just build something and get out there burning rubber and terrorizing the neighborhood!!!!

 

Im a MoPar man at heart so i have to say a nice 440. But I also like different and 455 BOOicks make mondo TQ too - and look kool doing it.

Did I say I love MoPars ?

HAHA

Rat

 

sort of like yelling into the wind, but like Dolmetcsch said, 550 horsepower is easy with the 440 and it will live a long long time and out torque just about everything on the street. The A-12 Road Runners and Super Bees were built to capitalize the on the 440's street prowess and made the legend even bigger.

 

They will all make reliable 500hp with all major parts stock.

440 - 6 pack pistons, the old MP509 cam, template ported stock open chamber heads, and a holley strip dominator. Easy combo. Use any block, crank, rods, and open chamber heads to do it. Use good bolts in the rods, a windage tray, and a hemi oil pickup.

454 - large oval port head with a bowl cleanup and large valves, a domed piston to get around 10:1 compression, decent cam with 240-250ish duration at 50, roller rockers, large plenum single plane intake and you are around 500hp. You need some of the large oval port heads, and I would use truck rods ith good bolts. Any block and crank is fine at this power level.

460 - early 429/460 heads (especially PI heads if you can find them) with small chambers, flat top pistons decent cam like the chevy, roller rockers, and lots of grinding on the exhaust side of the heads. Their I/E flow ratio is horrible. The Weiand Stealth is the best reasonably priced intake. Take lots of care in the oiling system since these have the same issues as clevelands - too much oil upstairs, starving the crank and rods. This is the only one that has trouble getting over 500hp - the head porting is needed because the exhaust ports are suck a bad design. Without working the exhaust port, you end up with a monster torque motor that hs trouble making over 450hp.

Between my and my housemate, we have built all three of these combos. The 454 I think I have about $1200 in (I lucked out with a $100 core). The 440 I had about $1500 but I paid $500 for the steel crank, 906 headed motor. My friend has a little more in his 460 because he paid someone else to build the motor.

 

If you want cheap, you probably would want a good running stock engine that you can swap in and go. 72-68 460s were 365hp stock, and who knows what torque. Swap out the intake and carb for a weiand stealth and at least a 750 cfm carb, stick a new straight up timing chain in it (late model 460s had a timing chain that would retard the cam timing), some new valve springs, and a set of headers and you'd have yourself probably 400 easy hp if your ignition and carb tunining are right. Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 ft lbs...

(note these are just educated guesses from my time building these engines)

If you look, you can find them, In my neck of the woods 460s are cheap to find, currently I've got two in my parts inventory, both were freebies. One buddy just spent 500 on a 454 core. Anything bbc is going high in my area.

 

Wow, what a question....lol. Ask that in my garage with about 10 or so of the vagrants I usually have hanging around there and I am pretty sure it would be a fight. As said it really comes down to personal preference and opinion, but I will spin it from a different angle. I have ran all these motors to the extremes in demolition derby cars over the years. When it comes down to abusing them in stock or modified form, nothing is stouter than a 440. I have ran a stock steel crank 440 backed by a 727 and 8 and 3/4 with 5:13 gears for 20 minutes on the floor the whole time in tacky mud without a radiator and never lost power. They are just the toughest of tough. Of course that will not be the application here, but it is good to know that they can be abused. I pulled that motor out of that car, put it in another and it fired right up and had no problems. I used if for a couple of more years before getting rid of it. I don't derby anymore, but I still have a love for those Mopar motors. One other thing to look at is what you are putting it in and clearance issues. Each motor is completely different physically and will fit your car completely different. Just my two cents.

 

interesting read on ford vs chevy: http://home.earthlink.net/~kaneofthenation/highflowdynamics/id15.html

 

Great stuff guys...keep it coming.
Not sure if I can afford all the great advice but it sure is interesting debate.
I would really like to see that Car Craft article, anyone know which issue?

It seems a great reality show would be to set three crews loose in a junk jard full of old Big 3 trucks and see who could make the hottest rod!

 

I did want to mention something. One argument that is often made is, that it's harder to find parts for anything other than a GM motor. I am finding it harder to find stuff for GM engines. Not because of the engine, but because of the circle of friends and people I know. I could scrounge up a few BBF with a phone call. I also just came across a guy who has a ton of 440 stuff. A buddy of mine loves FE and Cleveland engines, so he's got a huge inventory of engines and parts, so it's cheaper for him to build an FE than a chevy.

No matter what engine you decide on, get in with a dedicated group of like minded individuals and you'll have a treasure trove of parts to access.

 

and for the 454 don't wory about the 4 bolt main, yeah great to have, but teh 2 bolt with ARP studs can handle upwards of 1000hp no problem i fyour clearances are correct and you arent trying to swing a long stroke crank to 9900rpm like we do.
Hans.

 

I remember that article..... That was Car Craft..

 

Last I heard, you could still buy a brand spankin' new 440 RB 6-pack setup from any Dodge dealer for around 2500 green backs. I've also seen the prototype aluminum 6-pack intake for the 426-528 based hemi at a Mopar exhibit at the Woodward cruise a couple of years back... I'll have to dig up the picture of that one......

 

If aftermarket cylinder heads are in your budget, go 460. If not, 454.

 

For durability the 440 has the best rod angle and the Chebbie the worst. Would rather build the 440 and scare the pants off the 454 for the same $$$ spend

 

Darn my Old-Timers!
Thanks

 

And I agree with everyone these model year V8 suck compared to the 60s but everyone knows that so finding a late model 60s truck or early 70s model with a BB powerplant that is in good condition and CHEAP is verey difficult if not darn impossible.

I can buy a drivable late 70s truck with a BB for less than the engine and drive the beast as a shop truck as I pick up the rest of the parts for the build!

This hobby has become just too expensive for this old man!

 

Whatever is cheapest at the end of the rainbow-they all make good power. I would get an engine that is the same make as "my next project", cause that's what I like.

 

Sounds like a sweet power plant. I'd have to see it on a dyno to buy that it's making 400hp with the stock 8:2 to 1 slugs laying .120 in the hole and the small cam. I don't believe the factory made 475ftlbs either. I would have believed it at one time, then I bought my own dyno and realized that nobody (that goes for me to) makes the power they think they do. I'm sure it pushes you back in the seat cause I've never seen a 440 that didn't run strong. 300hp will push you in the seat though. I haven't had a 440 on the dyno yet but I'm building two of them now. Neither is low buck. One is an aluminum head, 11 to 1 roller cam deal and the other will be a milder max wedge look alike with about 9:5 to 1 and a hydraulic flat tappet. I'll post numbers if anyone cares when they are done. Just for reference, I did dyno a 8:5 to 1 455 Buick built stock with a cam and it made 260hp. Pretty lame, nothing was wrong with it. You just can't build a ton of power with low compression and no quench. And yes, when the customer put it in the car he thought it was fast. Kudos for building a healthy motor so cheap man. I've had some mopars and I love em. Not knocking you a bit. Just saying in my opinion, can't beat the Chevys for going fast cheap. Mopars are as fast, just not as cheap. Fords aint even in the ballpark. Buick Olds and Pontiac you can dump all the money in you want and they run like a steel head flat tappet big block Chevy. Cadillacs are truck motors. I love this thread.

 

Not valid? How can real actual uncorrected numbers be not valid? That's the number it's making in the real air it's really pumping. I'm saying ours made that number in humid Illinois air at 670ft above see level. If the numbers were corrected it was in the 460hp range. Corrections are so you can make comparisons in different environments. For instance if you're tuning on different days at different temperature or you tune in different locations. You can make a dyno sheet spit out any number you want. Ever heard of friction compensation? I tell the machine the stroke is longer than it really is, it calculates how much power is lost spinning the rotating assembly and what do you know, the corrected power number just got bigger. The water brake isn't seeing any additional torque. But because of a magic formula it's making more power. An uncorrected number is as valid as it gets. That's the actual amount of power the torque arm is feeling. I can tell you in a perfect world it's making 500hp but when you put it in your car and it's 90 degrees with 80% humidity you've got 450. Still love this thread. Amazing how spun up people get over topics like this.

 

I didn't read it all so it might have been said already....
Chevy is cheaper and certainly has more development thrown at it.
Mopar as always makes a load of power...then you go HEMI.

As a production engine the 429/460 has loads of potential as they were just at the start of their development when the factory had to pull the plug on performance.
If it had of been 4-5 years later the things would have just kicked total ass...until the others stepped up to the plate with something new as they always do!
Thats how it goes.

I truly believe the 460 has/had the potential to be the top dog...but the 454 has the continuous development edge.
As for the Mopar...do a HEMI and make EVERYONE drool....

 

I recon most don't know about all the new stuff on the 385 Fords. Development is still going on and catching up fast. Plenty of good heads and cam tech, cheaper stroker stuff to chose from. JMO but the gap is closing fast!

 

Wow there are some crazy tangents people are taking here. If you go aluminum heads this, or if you go six pack that.....phooey! The lame 460 exhaust port argument.....ahh well, whatever.

Go find me a six pack 440 or a big port 454 in a late `70's pickup for cheap I dare ya. This is one area where you flag wavers need to settle down. With the parts that come from the factory the run of the mill 460 Ford is by far the best bang for the buck. A good, say 750 Holley, on the factory intake, a new (early style) timing chain and gears that runs the stock cam straight up not retarded and a performance distributer. That's all you need, I promise you'll be impressed provided the engine is in good working order. BTW Ford 460's come in pickups, vans, ambulances, Lincolns, T-Birds and hi perf boats. They are common and you don't have to fuss too much what year you have they all are decent.

Now as far as the ext ports go it is much ado about nothing for the average street engine. I'll take great intake ports (which just about every standard 460 has) over better exhausts. Believe me the piston ramming the burned fuel up out of the cyl will certainly empty the cyl every time at streetable rpm levels. It's the ability of the base 460 to fill the largest cylinder of the bunch that makes this engine superior, especially when talking stock parts. If you feel better study the 460 ext port. It's not that bad of a shape it's more of the thermactor bump that needs to be reshaped like an airfoil. No big whoop and after I bought my burrs and sandpaper rolls that became a free modification.

 

I feel a shootout coming on. Lets build one of each, haul em to the shop and throw em on the dyno. We'll break out the grill and make it one big hamber party.