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Technical Flathead Timing Gear Question

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Eric Satterfield, Jul 20, 2020.

  1. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    If I hadn’t spent a heck of a lot of money recently on Flathead only items. 1k radiator- distributor -generator look alternator-C4 with a Flathead install kit. It would have a SBC in it. But it’s her car and she likes it like it is. Even though she makes fun of how slow it is. Lol.
     
  2. Andy
    Joined: Nov 17, 2002
    Posts: 4,797

    Andy
    Member

    I think your valve springs are upside down. I always put the close wound coils where there was less movement.
    I had an Isky 280 cam in a SBC and it made a tapping noise. On tear down, I found the cam to have one extra wide lobe. The wide lobe would hit the adjacent lifter on every revolution. I narrowed the lobe and replaced the chewed up lifter. No problems after that.
    You should pull the cam and look for rub marks.
    Another thought. A 8BA cam wants to move forward due to the cam gears. Your front cover could be worn and letting something hit.
     
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  3. GOSFAST
    Joined: Jul 4, 2006
    Posts: 254

    GOSFAST
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    Hi Andy, those don't appear to be a "progressive" spring, if I'm correct (based on the photos) there's no "tops or bottoms". Ford OEM springs were mfd this way! Only a few mfr's ever used a "progressive" spring! We have both types on the shelf here?

    If they were "progressive" the closer wound coils would go towards the spring seat registers on the guides! The second part of your sentence above is correct, as stated right here!

    Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

    P.S. Eric, one more item, put the individual main brg numbers up here (especially the rear main shells), there's a very slim chance they put a 59A main set instead of the necessary 8BA set? Not sure it's even possible but it's worth looking into at this stage!
     
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  4. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,912

    dirty old man
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    Eric, please stick with it awhile longer, you've got some real FH experts helping you out here! I haven't been this far inside a FH for at least 60 years, and all your excellent photography is rewarding me with things I forgot long ago!
    Sorry I can't be of help, but I'm cheering you on!
     
  5. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Wondering? When I put this back together the first time. I was trying to spend the least amount of money I could get by with. Because I knew there was going to be added cost we hadn’t really planned on with this car ( transmission etc). I noticed this gear was rough .It appeared the crank or the whole engine had been sitting someplace damp for sometime due to rust issues on various components. I really didn’t know if the oil pressure issue would even be resolved. I decided not to replace this pitted gear. Do you think the roughness on this may have worn the aluminum cam gear causing the metal found in the sump? Thanks again for reading and helping!
     

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  6. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 17,290

    alchemy
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  7. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
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    I should have replaced them....It is possible to hear the oil baffles rattling inside the lifter galley?...If one taps on them with a screwdriver etc...It sounds similar to what I'm hearing
     
  8. Andy
    Joined: Nov 17, 2002
    Posts: 4,797

    Andy
    Member

    Are the gears still out of allignment? The cam flange may be too thick ( mis-machined) Could you measure the thickness? I have some cams I could measure for comparison. If the flange was too thick, it would explane the gear problem plus maybe lifters off to the side hitting lobes.
     
  9. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    They are still a little over...I'm wondering is the gear itself was made too thick ? Someone had used sealant to glue the crankshaft nose bolt washer to the pulley...I noticed now that the washer was installed what I believe to be backwards meaning the raised center of the washer was facing the threads on the crank...Cup like for lack of a better term...Shouldn't a (belleville?) style washer be installed with the raised side under the bolt head?
     
  10. GordonC
    Joined: Mar 6, 2006
    Posts: 2,491

    GordonC
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    It should have the raised side to the bolt as it basically provides tension against the bolt to keep it from backing out once it is torqued down. As for the oil baffles it is simple enough to give the clamps underneath a quick squeeze to tighten them up. I don't recall my baffles being very loose or rattling once they clip into place.
     
  11. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 17,290

    alchemy
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    Crank bolt washers were made flat.
     
  12. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Ok...This washer has a raised side and it was facing the crank snout...I don't think this is the noise issue as it seemed plenty tight and made noise regardless of having a belt or not....Thanks
     
  13. wheeldog57
    Joined: Dec 6, 2013
    Posts: 2,146

    wheeldog57
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    Eric, please stick with it bro! You will find the culprit, we are here to help. I hope you find "something stupid" making the noise. The lack of power is concerning though.
     
  14. Andy
    Joined: Nov 17, 2002
    Posts: 4,797

    Andy
    Member

    You could take the cam gear off and put a couple of bolts in the cam. Put a big screw driver across the bolts and turn the cam. I turn the cam this way when setting valves. Maybe you could hear something while turning it.
    You could also pull the plugs and turn the crank.
     
  15. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    We once had a 2.8 4WD Chevy S10 Blazer..I think it would smoke the 34 and it was the most under powered vehicle I think we ever had...I got a ticket once for having it to the floor going down a mountain so I could meet the minimum speed going up the other side....LOL


    The lack of power is concerning though.
     
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  16. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,898

    banjorear
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    The two snouts on the 8BA-style cams I have both measured at .425" thickness.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
  17. It would be quite a stretch, but have you checked the cam gear for out-of-round or run-out?
     
  18. I suspect the crank gear the most,,,,it is pitted pretty badly,,,,,combine that with aluminum gear,,,,,and it will wear quickly .
    Once the aluminum starts wearing,,,,it can only get worse.

    The top gear should still be aligned reasonably close with the bottom one,,,,I understand some movement.
    But,,,,the cam thrust is forward on an 8BA,,,,,the timing cover should limit the travel .

    Tommy
     
  19. Flatrod17
    Joined: Apr 25, 2017
    Posts: 150

    Flatrod17
    Member

    Have you inspected the teeth on the cam gear for any small dents on the edge of the teeth? I have had this happen to me, small little dent gave a pretty good knocking noise. I don't like the pitted crank gear, unlikely, but could be a source for your noise as well. Also with the cam sticking out a bit it will have a small affect on cam to crank timing. If retarded it could be why its a dog to you.
     
  20. Model A Gomez
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,493

    Model A Gomez
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    I know it's been thrashed out but the cam looks too far forward to me, the cam and oil pump gears are both too far forward and in the pictures showing the lifters they don't seem to be centered on the lobe. I have no idea why but sure looks that way to me.

    cam.jpeg
     
  21. Andy
    Joined: Nov 17, 2002
    Posts: 4,797

    Andy
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    That is the only way the gears would be out of alignment. I think maybe the back of the flange on the cam is too thick and it has moved the cam forward. With the cam wanting to move forward because of the gear thrust, it is possible that a lobe is hitting a lifter.
     
  22. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
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    I guess after 33 years of being married there’s no reason to continue an argument with a woman. I had mentioned the engine HAMB member Frames had advertised on the board classifieds. And since this is her car for all practical purposes she called him up and made a deal. I think I will continue to try and find the reason or reasons for it’s issues and either try to sell it or shove it into a corner for possibly a future project. Thank you all for taking out the time to try and assist me. Eric.
     
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  23. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,912

    dirty old man
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    I would say that in this case that old quotation, "discretion is the better part of valor" is certainly applicable:):cool:
    But if you ever get around to checking this out and find the problem, I'm sure I'm not the onlyone here who'd like to hear about it.
     
  24. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Update. We purchased an engine. But as our good luck would have it. The freight company ruined it. By what appears to have dropped the shipping pallet and breaking the rear ear off of the block. Working on returning it to the seller. No further money to spend.so back to the drawing board on this one. Question. I’ve noticed that a couple of the valves on my old engine when open have some play in the guides. Could this be the ticking that I’ve been hearing.?. Here’s a pic to make you sick to your stomach after anticipation of a new engine and to arrive like this.
     

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  25. jimvette59
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 888

    jimvette59
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    Wow hope it was insured ?
     
  26. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    It was. But sure the trucking outfit will blame the sender
     
  27. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,912

    dirty old man
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  28. Wrench97
    Joined: Jan 29, 2020
    Posts: 480

    Wrench97

    Improperly packaged is a real issue with shippers, however the driver that picked it is the first line of defense, the old timers know what would travel and what would not, a lot of the younger guys just put it on the truck.
    Keep in mind fellows a LTL operation does not put the skid in a truck and bring it to your house it may move across several freight docks and get loaded in several different trailers get freight stacked on it or be stacked on top of other freight along the way, high and tight in loading a trailer is the mantra in long haul LTL so the stronger the packaging the better(think crate and I've seen them get torn up too).
     
  29. Andy
    Joined: Nov 17, 2002
    Posts: 4,797

    Andy
    Member

    Do you have the broken off piece? I would look into getting it reattached or a part from a another block. Attach it using the bell housing as a fixture and nickel weld it back. No fluid passages back there.
     
  30. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    I picked the engine up at the freight company local terminal. The engine had obviously been rough handled. The bands that had been installed by the person that shipped it were no longer around the engine. It was upside down. Also concrete dust on that area where it had busted the concrete on impact. The broken piece was not present. Here’s some more pics as I received it. It’s a big ass chunk of metal to not notice they broke it off. The engine was wrapped in plastic I made note to the guy at the terminal that it looked like it had received some pretty rough treatment. But I did not notice the missing block portion until I went to bolt it on the engine stand head and there was nothing to bolt it to. I can’t win.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020

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