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Technical Flathead Timing Gear Question

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Eric Satterfield, Jul 20, 2020.

  1. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    I rebuilt this 8BA engine about 500 miles ago and it’s had a constant clicking sound that sounds as if it’s coming from the timing cover. I’ve torn the engine back down and have checked everything I can think of to check to include valve adjustment on the Isky Max 1 camshaft. I noticed the cam gear over hangs the crankshaft gear. Is is normal or a common problem? The gear is an aluminum Cloyes that was in the engine when purchased. Thank You.
     

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  2. sloppy jalopies
    Joined: Jun 29, 2015
    Posts: 4,900

    sloppy jalopies
    Member

    flattie builder said the 59ab and 8ba engines [thruss ?] in opposite directions, which gear do you have ?...
     
  3. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    From what I found #2702 is a Cloyes gear for 49-53. Crank gear is #2701 crankshaft is cast EAB. Engine is 8ba
    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  4. leon bee
    Joined: Mar 15, 2017
    Posts: 592

    leon bee
    Member
    from Arkansas!

    Is the crank pulley on real snug?
     

  5. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Yes. I checked it before I decided to remove the engine. The noise is louder than a normal mechanical lifter noise. It seems to be louder when the engine is at operating temp (170-180). Oil pressure is 50lb hot idle. I checked 3 random rod bearings and two of the mains and the inserts look as new. I also pulled the heads and see no interference issues. The only thing that stands out is the gear overlap. Which I don’t know that it could make the noise I’m hearing regardless?
     
  6. What does the noise do,,,,,that is,,,,does it do It all the time .
    When I got mine,,,it would have a loud audible click every other revolution .
    It had the original fiber gear in it,,,,,but would produce a loud click .
    The click was always in the same spot too,,,,,,

    Tommy
     
  7. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Just a steady clack clack clack Not an exhaust leak or spark knock It’s been there since I rebuilt it after the oil pressure issue. I can’t say if the noise was there before as it never ran long enough to ever notice it. We have been driving it lately and it seems to be getting worse. I pulled plug wires off one at a time awhile back and it seemed to make no difference. The noise is loud enough I expected to see something obvious when I tore it down. Something broken shinned up loose etc. Thanks
     
  8. Departed
    Joined: Dec 20, 2010
    Posts: 174

    Departed
    Member
    from Canada

    I had noise in the front of mine too, then I noticed my fan was touching the shroud... :-/
    Are you running a fuel pump? Maybe the fuel pump rod ?


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  9. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    I ran the engine with belts disconnected and the noise was still there .The stock fuel pump rod has been deleted. When I first purchased this car someone had rebuilt the engine. But it had no oil pressure. Help from the HAMB led me to the problem which was the bushing for the pushrod had been removed. I installed a replacement and the oil pressure came back. Could I have done something wrong installing the new bushing? I’m not new to putting an engine together. But this is the first Flathead Ford . Another thing I failed to mention (dumb ass). I did the first oil change after the rebuild a week or so ago (Around 450 miles of driving). The oil had evidence of metal. Yesterday when I removed the pan there was a build up in the bottom of the sump of metal evidence. But not magnetic. Which is why I focused on the aluminum gear . I didn’t remove the cam-lifters or valve springs when I redid the rotating assembly. I noticed the cam was marked Isky Max 1. But I didn’t purchase it new as it was in the engine when I received it. Thanks everyone for the help! Eric.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  10. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    One other thing as stated earlier this is my first Flathead so I have nothing to go by. But it’s a total dog power wise. It starts easy. Idles good. Plug condition mixture wise looks good. It’s 060 over. Two 97s on an Eddie Meyer manifold. Isky Max 1 and headers. Timing is set around 6 btdc .C4 transmission and 3.50 gears. Full fendered glass 34. A close up of gear mesh and valve springs
     

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    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  11. v8flat44
    Joined: Nov 13, 2017
    Posts: 859

    v8flat44

    What distributer are you running ? Stock one will not work properly with multiple carbs.
    Also, i had a goofy rotor/cap issue where the rotor hit one plug wire terminal & CLICKED every rotation.
    Post on the For Barn too......lots of flatty guys ......
     
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  12. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    I’m running the Hunt magneto look electronic. On an earlier thread I had removed some material from the mounting area on the distributor case as it didn’t appear to properly engage the drive gear which was then shimmed to return to its original depth I’ve since replaced it with a new one (same distributor) a couple of weeks ago as I was concerned the noise was drive gear engagement to the cam . No difference in sound was made after replacement. This noise I’m after is kind of a tang tang tang (Hard to describe). Not a deep knock. If that makes any sense. I don’t see anything wrong with the crankshaft pulley but the noise seems to me. Which I could be completely wrong sounds like it’s coming from the front cover area. Using a stick or rod as a listening device was no help in isolating it
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  13. GOSFAST
    Joined: Jul 4, 2006
    Posts: 254

    GOSFAST
    Member

    That cam gear appears to be in the wrong location, hard to tell from internet photos however? There should be no noticeable difference between the depths of the two gears in the front! They should be very close to perfect alignment.

    Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

    P.S. If possible place another close-up shot of the faces of both gears, preferably showing the timing marks next to each other (aligned)! (Add) Disregard that last sentence, missed the timing marks in the above photo?
     
    Pist-n-Broke likes this.
  14. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    I’d be glad to provide any closer or better pics. I’m at a loss of what this noise is. Another note. For whatever reason? Someone has used silicone to glue the washer to the crank pulley below the attachment bolt. Thanks again.
     
  15. Have yo tried to roll the engine by starter with the heads off. I am wondering if you have a valve that is hanging up and snapping shut. Also possible valve spring bind?
     
  16. GOSFAST
    Joined: Jul 4, 2006
    Posts: 254

    GOSFAST
    Member

    Hi Eric, more pictures of what's already here won't really help.

    We do this type work for a living here and just finished a few Flatheads.

    You have one or two things going on, either the gear isn't installed on the cam correctly OR the cam isn't deep enough into the block. The cam gear appears to be sticking out from the gasket surface where the cover rests, for this reason I wouldn't suspect any issue with the crank gear, it appears to be OK?

    The silicone may have been used to try to stop any oil leaking between the damper and the crank snout. When you put it back together I would put some "Right Stuff" on the crank snout then install the damper!

    (Add) One more item I just thought of, make certain the cam gear bolts aren't too long and rubbing on the block behind the gear!

    Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

    P.S. Check closer for the cam gear fit on the cam, then remove the gear and make certain the cam is resting against the cam thrust surface of the block? It appears the cam MAY be out too far for some unknown reason? If you have access to one of the lifter bores you may be able to "sight" the cam lobe positioning?
     
    Bandit Billy likes this.
  17. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    I had not tried that. Sorry for the long winded posts. Just trying to provide as much info as possible. There are No Flathead guys in this area. (Rural West Virginia) I really want to keep a flatly in this car not go to an OHV as it’s popular at cruise ins etc. because there are none around..The cam gear in the last photo is not bolted to the camshaft...But is goes no deeper with the bolts...The gear mesh in the rear block access panel seems to be good..Better than inside the front cover
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  18. GOSFAST
    Joined: Jul 4, 2006
    Posts: 254

    GOSFAST
    Member

    Hi Eric, I wouldn't even consider not using the Flathead, you'll "devalue" the ride some! And we build high-end Chevies here also!

    Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

    P.S. Just picked up the ride in my avatar, it has the OEM drivetrain, I would never put any o'head unit in there, if anything I'll be doing a 4.250" Flathead stroker for it! Have all the parts in stock (stroker kits) to get it done including a good 8BA block.
     
  19. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Hey Gary,,,,This engine is in the wife's car..which is not exactly HAMB friendly because it has a Heidts IFS...But it's perfect for her
     
  20. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,194

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    Couple things come to mind, with the front cover on the engine can you get any thrust movement on the camshaft? Also check the crank thrust movement. Is there an oil slinger on the crank gear? Also have you checked piston to head clearance over the entire dome of the piston. I had one once that cleared on the top of the dome but would slightly contact the head out at the edge of the piston dome. Come to find out the Ross piston dome wasn’t shaped the same as the cylinder head dome and was just barely making contact.
     
  21. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 17,249

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I had a flathead pound the sparkplug electrodes shut because they kissed the tops of the valves. Check your plugs. It didn't make too much difference in performance, but I could hear it when it happened.
     
  22. I think I would figure out where all the non-magnetic particles came from. There are only a few aluminum pieces in the engine....cam gears and pistons? From your description, whatever the source it should show damage to the naked eye. That may be your best clue.....other than the misaligned cam.
     
    Darin Younce likes this.
  23. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    I can’t seem to find anything that would make the type of noise I’m hearing. Here’s a rear photo. I have the heads off and see no interference issues.
     

    Attached Files:

  24. Could the metal particles be from the aluminum cam gear ?
    With the mis alignment of the gears,,,,,wouldn’t the steel crank gear teeth start eating into the aluminum eventually ?
    Because the actual mesh of the gears doesn’t ride on the sharp edge .
    In this instance,,, with the sharp edge or corner making contact with the aluminum ,,,,,maybe removing metal ?

    And Eric,,,,,there is no way the fuel pump bushing could be an issue .
    You did it right,,,,,also,,,,the bushing is steel,,,,and the cam is iron,,,,,,all magnetic !

    There might be an valve snapping shut and clicking,,,,,that was mine problem before .
    What about the front cam thrust,,,,,with the cam gear so far off,,,,,shouldn’t it be riding against the front cam cover ?

    Tommy
     
  25. GordonC
    Joined: Mar 6, 2006
    Posts: 2,473

    GordonC
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Just asking this by way of offering something that hasn't been discussed yet. When the engine was reinstalled after the rebuild was anything else changed such as the clutch or throw out bearing? If so any chance anything there is contributing to the problem? Also are you running a generator or alternator and have they been checked for the noise?
     
  26. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    I ran the engine with the belts off and the noise was still present Anyone got a running non leaking no noises engine for sale? If I hadn’t just purchased a new radiator, distributor and a generator look alternator all Flathead specific. This joker would be getting an OHV engine soon. What’s a rebuilt Flathead engine going for these days? I’m def not re-installing this one if I’m unable to find the source of the noise. I pulled the gear and re torqued it as you can see nothing has changed. But the gear appears to be in place on the rear side.
     

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  27. GOSFAST
    Joined: Jul 4, 2006
    Posts: 254

    GOSFAST
    Member

    Hi Eric, those rear gears also make it appear as though the cam is way too far forward in the block, like I said earlier, it's difficult to make an evaluation from photos, but I can say that rear gear "mesh" also appears to not be correct!

    Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

    P.S. I still wouldn't "swap" the Flathead out, it just wouldn't be the same!
     
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  28. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 17,249

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    In regard to Russco's question, we can see there's no oil slinger in front of the crank gear. So what else was mis-assembled? Maybe you should show us pics of the overall crank and bearings. Is the rear bearing (thrust face) correct, or maybe the crank is too far back? Give us some pics.
     
  29. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 286

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    To my defense it was reassembled the same way it came apart. Appreciate the help!
     

    Attached Files:

    Desoto291Hemi likes this.

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