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Flathead Tech

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Flatdog, Mar 4, 2008.

  1. Rand Man
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 3,965

    Rand Man
    Member

    These could be found all on the same block, right? They are all intakes, right? Which cylinders are long and which are short? I guess the inner two on each side are shorter?
     
  2. blown49
    Joined: Jul 25, 2004
    Posts: 2,212

    blown49
    Member Emeritus

    I think the concenses is all on the right side are shorter than all on the left side.

    Now Flatdog here's another vote to expand on your theory please. (If it take begging I'm not ashamed to beg. It is for a good cause:D)
     
  3. blown49
    Joined: Jul 25, 2004
    Posts: 2,212

    blown49
    Member Emeritus

    OK so I took some liberties with a couple of Flatdog's pics. First off I angled them closer to what they would be in the block; then I mirrored them to place them on the correct sides (I think) when viewed from the front. If I'm wrong Flatdog go ahead and rag on me cause I prolly deserve it.

    It looks to me like the top of the left valve guide has been shortened but not the right. Is this part of the answer to the puzzle?

    The drivers side (Left)

    [​IMG]


    The passengers side (Right)

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Flatdog
    Joined: Jan 31, 2003
    Posts: 1,285

    Flatdog
    Member Emeritus

    49 You done good.The only reason the ports look difference in the pictures is top pic (long side) is stock port, Bottom pic is a modified port(short side) with cut down guide.
     
  5. blown49
    Joined: Jul 25, 2004
    Posts: 2,212

    blown49
    Member Emeritus

    Well master of flathead experience I thought you were suggesting the answer was there I just had to get my head clear to see it. Thanks for the test :D:rolleyes:
     
  6. Flatdog
    Joined: Jan 31, 2003
    Posts: 1,285

    Flatdog
    Member Emeritus

    There is a lot of info in those pics, study them.
     
  7. 4tl8ford
    Joined: Sep 1, 2004
    Posts: 1,087

    4tl8ford
    Member
    from Erie, Pa

  8. nexxussian
    Joined: Mar 14, 2007
    Posts: 3,240

    nexxussian
    Member

    Thanks Flatdog. Very informative and nice pics too; dang, musta been alotta work, didn't you do a thread on the cutting? Maybe I'm just nuts, more than normal.
     
  9. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 16,990

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    An (almost) oldie but a goodie. Treasure this one folks.
     
  10. An interesting read on this topic is an article by Barnie Navarro in the Tex Smith flathead book.
     
  11. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Flatdog owned an actual Barney Navarro sketch of a port...pretty much just a couple of shaky lines scrawled on scrap paper during a conversation, beyond interpretation by anyone not at the actual conversation, but you can be assured that Flatdog and Barney shared the contents of quite a few brain cells...
    He had I think just tracked down and started conversation with Ed Bingelli, another flathead superguru, when he died.
    Flatdog and I had both, it turned out, had wanted to know Bingelli's port tech since roughly 1962, when we read a very cryptic article on the mods in an HRM article on his improbably fast flathead gasser. Flatdog's very experienced take was that Bingelli's Willys/Ford was a solid 2 seconds faster than science could explain...
     
  12. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Digger Dave posted a pic of a similar napkin type drawing by Navarro talking about both ports & reliefs...

    I know Joe Abbin showed me a note pad full of notes from his last phone conversation with Flatdog...

    EDIT: Found Digger Dave's pic:
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Ernie, what is that dimension of the lip between the relief and the bore? Looks like 1/3", or is it 1/8" Thanks! Bill
     
  14. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    I think Flatfog posted a pic of his Navarro napkin...can anyone find that on here?
     
  15. blown49
    Joined: Jul 25, 2004
    Posts: 2,212

    blown49
    Member Emeritus

    Bruce I think this was that post but the pic is gone:

    Original Flatdog Post (Picture is gone) 1-8-04
    Post #14
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7463&highlight=navarro;napkin

    First posting I saw that referenced that post was by Flat Ernie:

    Flat Ernie Post of 10-17-04
    Post #30
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31987&highlight=navarro&page=2
     
  16. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Flatdog implies that the pic shown IS his...I remember it as being much less clear than that...dunno if we're discussing 2 pictures or one, my memory is so leaky. Need a new head gsket...
     
  17. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Bill - it's 1/8" and the port radius is 1-5/8"

    I'm pretty sure I got the above pic from Digger Dave (has anyone heard from him lately?) in an offline email exchange a couple years ago. But I guess it could've been from online here stolen from one of Flatdog's always informative posts...
     
  18. Mac1
    Joined: Jun 13, 2008
    Posts: 11

    Mac1
    Member

    To: Bruce Lancaster,

    Would you happen to know the
    minimum distance between the water jackets in Flatdog's Intake port pictures?

    Thanks,
    Mac1
     
  19. flatoz
    Joined: May 11, 2003
    Posts: 3,199

    flatoz
    Member

    Mac1

    best to ask Bruce, Flatdog passed away earlier this year. A real loss to the flathead world.
     
  20. Mac1
    Joined: Jun 13, 2008
    Posts: 11

    Mac1
    Member

    So sorry to hear this.
    He was a BIG do'er. God speed Flatdog!
     
  21. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    "Would you happen to know the
    minimum distance between the water jackets in Flatdog's Intake port pictures"
    No...no details on those pics!

    But, thickness of port at top is the actual issue; I believe Flatdog and Barney considered lower belly area of posrt useless, to be left alone or filled.
     
  22. Mac1
    Joined: Jun 13, 2008
    Posts: 11

    Mac1
    Member

    Thanks Bruce.

    For a good running street engine, I agree.

    Mac1
     
  23. Elmo Rodge
    Joined: May 12, 2002
    Posts: 2,316

    Elmo Rodge
    Member

    Between which water jackets? Wayno
     
  24. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    I interpreted this as total diameter, actually, how much whole tunnel could be hogged?
     
  25. Mac1
    Joined: Jun 13, 2008
    Posts: 11

    Mac1
    Member

    Bruce,

    You are correct.
    I had cut up early blocks to check port wall thickness, but not 1948-53 blocks.
    The later blocks have a larger/taller coolant passage under the intake port floor.
    To speed up the porting, I used various size round metal washers tacked to 4" to 6" lengths of 1/8" welding rod with the free end looped into a 5/8"-3/4" circle.
    The washers will measure around turns and corners in the ports, inside calipers will not.
    The washer diameters varied by 1/16". Used as a go or no go gauge in the port.
    First thing before porting, I would always measure from the deck to the top of the intake port water jacket wall for core shift, if any. I would port the roof first, the floor would be second, then the side walls third and fourth.

    For RACING, the roof wall would end up .050"-.060" thick.
    For the later blocks, not really knowing the intake port wall thickness at the coolant passage running under the port floor next to the valve guides, I used a 1-1/8" washer for the vertical distance when porting the port floor, when the washer JUST slipped through into the valve pocket, that was it

    If the port roof walls were down from the deck some what, or the water jacket walls were real rusty, then I would use a 1-1/32"to 1-1/16" washer for the vertical after porting the roof; See left bottom picture of the first set of Flatdog's port pictures.

    Thats why I ask the question regarding the outside over all distance between water jacket walls.
    Wondering just how close was too close to the lower coolant passage when porting the port floor.

    Measuring the guides in the pictures against a stock guide measurement and trying to come up with a ratio (in the pictures) between guide dimension and the distance between water jackets was not too successful, the ratios were not consistent.

    Mac1
     
  26. Elmo Rodge
    Joined: May 12, 2002
    Posts: 2,316

    Elmo Rodge
    Member

    OK Mac. I have an 8BA block section but not a slice through the port like in the photo. I'll try to get a dimension in the morning. Wayno
     
  27. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    I would worry about consistency here...that is a hell of a complicated casting area with lots of small pieces of molding sand wired into place during the casting. Someone posted a picture of the flathead casting forms here...foundryman's nightmare keeping all the bits in the right places.
     
  28. Elmo Rodge
    Joined: May 12, 2002
    Posts: 2,316

    Elmo Rodge
    Member

    I haven't been able to take any actual measurements yet, but my calibrated finger calipers tell me that there isn't much over .080 or .100" wall thickness on the sides of the port. I'll try for better measurements later. I'm sick today. Wayno
     
  29. Elmo Rodge
    Joined: May 12, 2002
    Posts: 2,316

    Elmo Rodge
    Member

    OK. I took some fairly crude measurements. On the one side I can get to we're looking at about .130". Over the top going through the hole it appears to be on the order of .250 or so. As Bruce has pointed out, possibilities of core shift abound so I wouldn't go nuts on removing material. Have you tried to scale the photos? Wayno
     
  30. Mac1
    Joined: Jun 13, 2008
    Posts: 11

    Mac1
    Member

    Elmo

    A stock flathead guide OD is 1.03"
    I used second set picture Pict0101(small) for the guide OD to the OA distance between upper and lower water jackets for a ratio.
    In picture: water jackets distance = 1.1875" approx. Guide OD = 1.00" approx.

    !.1875"/ 1.00" = 1.1875 : 1 ratio.

    Distance between water jackets = 1.1875 ratio x 1.030" guide OD = 1.223" (use 1.200" approx for this port)

    Mucho additional Flathead Tech on this site: Midstate Antique Stock Car Club - Flat Tech.htm
    Mac1
     

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