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Technical Flathead block repairs

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by fiftiescat, May 21, 2021.

  1. fiftiescat
    Joined: Jan 22, 2013
    Posts: 159

    fiftiescat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NY

    Ok, so I picked up a 59L engine last weekend and have been pleasantly surprised during tear down. I pulled the heads and intake and was happy to find adjustable lifters and a 4” stroke crank. I’ve been extracting head studs all week, I finished one side and moved onto the next and I found this repair on the corner. My machinist didn’t seem to concerned but I figured I’d see what you guys have come across over the years. You can see the repair in the second to last photo. Also trying to ID the cam. Thanks guys! [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG]


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    Last edited: May 21, 2021
  2. akoutlaw
    Joined: May 13, 2010
    Posts: 931

    akoutlaw
    Member

    I like the look of those heads.
     
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  3. junkman8888
    Joined: Jan 28, 2009
    Posts: 629

    junkman8888
    Member

    I don't know how your machinist would not be worried as it (1) looks like the damage extends down into the cylinder bore, (2) involves an area of the block that includes a head stud. I know there are a few metal magicians that can make this problem go away but if it was mine I'd look for another block.
     
  4. fiftiescat
    Joined: Jan 22, 2013
    Posts: 159

    fiftiescat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NY

    The repair appears to have been done very well, but I’m definitely skeptical. It’s getting so difficult to find anything decent these days that isn’t a basket case. I’ll keep my fingers crossed.


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  5. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 5,851

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Unless that stud is completely roached, I'd leave it right where it is if I were going to use that block (which I probably would).

    I think that's why flatheads have so many head studs; one or two marginal ones aren't fatal!:rolleyes:
     
    F-ONE likes this.
  6. I can’t believe that hot rodders actually used to exist !
    Have they all died off ?
    Afraid of the block,,,,,,not me,,,,,it was working just fine wasn’t it ?

    It appears that the repair was done in a very good way,,,,,there used to be very talented repair men around,,,,,some still are !
    When you have the boring done,,,,dress the deck down a little as well,,,.010 or so,,,,
    It won’t hurt a thing .
    There are many blocks that have been repaired,,,welded,,,,,,and they are running just fine .
    It all goes back to the experience of the welder .

    And besides,,,,that cylinder could always be sleeved if absolutely necessary,,,no problem .
    Just get the rest of your broken studs out and don’t hurt anything,,,they can difficult.

    Tommy
     
  7. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,869

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    I would use it but....

    I would not go nuts with the overhaul. Of course you want it in or close to spec but I personally would not bore it and have a lot of machine work done unless I absolutely had too. I'm thinking make sure the valves seal, rings and bearings.....If you can.

    I agree with tubman, leave that stud in place.

    Do not Chase the threads with a tap. Ford flatheads used a special tap with a tight tolerance. A regular tap can and most of the time does cause leakage around the head studs. It's not a easy fix. It involves lots of sealer...if you are lucky.
    So...chase the threads with a headbolt/stud with clean out grooves cut into it.
     
  8. What is the method of the original repair, brass of some type of epoxy? Hard to tell from the pictures but does look extremely well done and finished to quote Desoto291Hemi. Also has been stated it could be sleeved if necessary and re welded using more modern repairs. How long was it ran with that repair before you tore it down and found it? Someone trusted it enough to hop it up with those heads 4" crank and associated parts so it is most likely good.
     
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  9. treb11
    Joined: Jan 21, 2006
    Posts: 3,690

    treb11
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Looks like nickel welding. How far into the bore does it go? If you aren't comfortable, maybe sleeve that bore.

    What brand are the heads? edit I see the "Rocket" cast in
     
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  10. It appears your block(59L) is a factory relieved block. I would NOT bore any more than absolute necessary. I have read from numerous authors:DO NOT deck the block unless absolutely necessary as “they say” the flathead blocks have a really THIN deck to start with——however .010 is not much of a cut but I would leave it be unless you encountered problems in that area of this engine. 31CD4B0E-EFDE-4768-A24C-8AA1354626E2.jpeg 0F98DC2C-A96F-4598-8BAF-424C77432FE2.jpeg 31CD4B0E-EFDE-4768-A24C-8AA1354626E2.jpeg 0F98DC2C-A96F-4598-8BAF-424C77432FE2.jpeg
     
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  11. v8flat44
    Joined: Nov 13, 2017
    Posts: 858

    v8flat44

    Hone it, re ring it & drive it. Ole Ron might know that cam.
     
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  12. fiftiescat
    Joined: Jan 22, 2013
    Posts: 159

    fiftiescat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NY

    These are Kogel Rocket heads. The repair appears to be nickel and I gotta say, if it wasn’t a different color I’d probably never noticed it.


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  13. Model A Gomez
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,492

    Model A Gomez
    Member

    I would use the block, screw the stud in with thread sealant and torque it in stages and I think you would be fine.
     
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  14. fiftiescat
    Joined: Jan 22, 2013
    Posts: 159

    fiftiescat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NY

    That’s the plan!


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  15. hemihotrod66
    Joined: May 5, 2019
    Posts: 439

    hemihotrod66
    Member

    I have seen original Ford blocks with repairs that look just like that...They would repair the blocks when casting them...If it doesn't leak leave it alone....
     
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  16. fiftiescat
    Joined: Jan 22, 2013
    Posts: 159

    fiftiescat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NY

    I’ll be honest with you, that’s what it looks like, but one can only hope!


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  17. Fiftiescat,
    Yes,,,,it looks like nickel to me as well .
    That block is what,,,,,,75 years old,,,,,,it was probably welded 50-60 years ago .
    Like I said,,,,there were some real craftsmen years ago,,,,,could do magic with a welder and the right prep,,and rod .
    I guess it is a lost art,,,,,,but maybe not,,,,,maybe we have just let it die .

    Here I go on my soapbox,,,,,,please forgive me .

    It has gotten to where the mentality is just throw it away.
    Torque to yield bolts,,,,,,the old ones are not T to Y,,,,,old factory bolts without any blemishes ,,,rusty corrosion spots ,,,are as good or better than new !
    These old Ford bolts were better than grade 8,,,,,,that’s because Mr. Ford was a hard nose man,,,,,he didn’t accept failure.
    He was an autocrat,,,he wanted it his way,,,,and got it.
    He had more power than the President of the United States,,,,,,,really he did !
    Yes,,,,,the V8 started life there with some issues,,,,he had to put it out quick and dirty,,,,,but it was revised,,,,,and improved .
    And the later versions were great,,,,,it all comes with improvements,,,,,and Mr. Ford was all about that .
    After all,,,,,it had his name on it !
    And the flathead cranks,,,,,,cast steel,,,,,,,but they were and are awesome pieces,,,,,the ones now that are 70-80 years old,,,,,are in excellent condition.
    Can be welded,,,and stroked,,,,,how many cast parts can lay claim to that ?

    One more thing,,,,,I am not a huge Ford lover,,,,,just being honest with my experience so far .
    I was originally a Chevy guy,,,,,then Mopar,,,,,yes,,,,Mopar ,,,,,,my Flathead is the only Ford I have ever owned,,,,but I respect it for what it is ,,,,,an excellent , well built engine .
    Quality is everything,,,,back then as well as now !
    Hot rodders did a lot of r&d for Ford,,,they modified and beat those old engines to death,,,,,that is a sign of real quality .

    Tommy
     
  18. Glenn Thoreson
    Joined: Aug 13, 2010
    Posts: 256

    Glenn Thoreson
    Member
    from SW Wyoming

    Use plenty of gasket sealer around the base of that stud. Sealer on the threads. Don't over tighten.
    That looks like a superb repair. Don't worry about it, just enjoy it. Those blocks are getting to be very hard to find now.
     
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  19. AngleDrive
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 983

    AngleDrive
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Florida

    Very good plan
     
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  20. Flathead Dave
    Joined: Mar 21, 2014
    Posts: 3,457

    Flathead Dave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from So. Cal.

    Is that a crack in the weld next to the cylinder? If not, I wouldn't worry about a thing. The motor looks nice and clean.
     
  21. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,200

    Truckedup
    Member

    Is that repair an actual weld where the where the filler and base metal melts together ? Or like brazing where the filler adheres to the base metal?
    I would bolt the head to the bare block and torque it down as a test. It's easy to say it's and old sound repair..
     
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  22. TRENDZ
    Joined: Oct 16, 2018
    Posts: 310

    TRENDZ

    Decking the block may cause a bit of work for you or your machinist. The weld repair will not be at the same height as the rest of the deck, and depending on direction of travel, could cause the opposite end of the cutter to disturb the deck surface on the opposite side. Starting the cut from that corner should alleviate most of the issue. Cast iron machines much differently than nirod or stainless which is likely what was used in that repair. Concern should be in the finish of the deck , not in the durability of the repair. Hand filing may be required after decking.
     
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  23. fiftiescat
    Joined: Jan 22, 2013
    Posts: 159

    fiftiescat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NY

    Unfortunately the crack goes into the cylinder about 1/8 of an inch.


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  24. No problem,,,sleeve that cylinder .
    The block will be running when we are all gone .

    Tommy
     
  25. Pete1
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 2,042

    Pete1
    Member
    from Wa.


    Not all flathead cranks were cast steel. Only a very limited amount of 1CM and 8CM ones were. A spark test is the easiest and quickest way to determine.
    The cast iron ones CAN be welded into strokers also. Done it many times. They are just not as strong as the steel ones.
    Fine for street use.
     
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  26. gary macdonald
    Joined: Jan 18, 2021
    Posts: 135

    gary macdonald
    Member

    It obviously ran as is for a while , rering and run it .
     
  27. Sorry Pete,
    I was just repeating what I had heard and read .
    I saw an old video of the casting process from around the mid 30’s I guess .
    The narrator specifically called out a special cast steel that was only used in the crankshafts .
    He said it was melted in an electric furnace,,,,,and it was a special formula.
    It was really cool watching all those cranks being poured in the molds,,,,4 at a time,,,,,and then being broken apart and heat treated in an oven before machining .

    Tommy
     
  28. Hell...put every thing back together and pressure test it - you didn't find water or antifreeze in the oil did you ?
     
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  29. fiftiescat
    Joined: Jan 22, 2013
    Posts: 159

    fiftiescat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NY

    Now the question is, can you sleeve a 3 5/16” cylinder? Also, what’s the procedure for the relief area? I’d assume you can machine the sleeve at the relief. This engine is 274ci and I know someone out there can fix it.


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