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Technical First year of the synchromesh saginaw?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kan't spell, Mar 31, 2015.

  1. I've been trying to figure this out for the last hour or so. What was the first year of the synchromesh Saginaw 3 speed?
    Thanks guys.
     
  2. john walker
    Joined: Sep 11, 2008
    Posts: 1,139

    john walker
    Member

    found this on google, your friend.

    Looks like there was more than one.
    SAGINAW 1966-81 Cars, 1966-87 Light Duty Trucks: Parts List 92
    Cast iron case and extension housing with 7-bolt side cover. Fully synchronized with 30 tooth synchro rings. 1966-69 units may have electric overdrive. It has a four step cluster and all the gears are helical cut.

    BORG-WARNER T16 1965-68 Cars, 1968 Trucks Inquire
    Cast iron case and extension housing with 9-bolt side cover. Fully synchronized with 27 tooth 1st gear and 36 tooth 2nd & 3rd gear synchro rings. Has case casting number T16-1X. Found in heavy duty applications.

    MUNCIE (Heavy Duty) 1969-74 Cars, 1969-76 Trucks Parts List 75
    Cast iron case and extension housing with 7-bolt side cover. Fully synchronized with 36 tooth synchro rings. This is the only GM 3 speed with the same bearing front and rear. This transmission is found in performance applications.
     
  3. Thanks. I was trying the Google but nothing I found said for sure what year it was. So 1966 is the first year of the synchromesh Saginaw.
     
  4. Another question, What is the best way to tell if it is a synchromesh or non-synchromesh?
     
  5. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    The trans case and side covers are very different from the earlier common non-syncro 3 speeds. So, appearance would be my answer.

    Ray
     
  6. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 8,916

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    With the engine running push the clutch in and immediately stick it in first, if it don't grind its syncro..If that doesn't tell you then try going into first from second at 15 mph or so..
     
    belair likes this.
  7. You can tell when driving one but I'm looking for one that will probably be sitting on the floor of some guys garage.
     
  8. Thanks. That's what I was hoping for. Any idea how they are different?
     
  9. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,573

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    ===================

    1966 Brochure talks about the "new" fully synchonized 3 speed.
    http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/stat..._Brochure/1966 Chevrolet Full Size-22-23.html

    the 1965 brochure just says 3 speed synchromesh.
    http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/stat..._Brochure/1965 Chevrolet Full Size-16-17.html

    This link says Chevy use the Ford all synchro 3 speed a year or 2 earlier.
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/3-speed-with-synchro-first.628183/
     
  10. Something like this yard art I have abusing my cart? 2003_0116stuff0001.JPG 2003_0116stuff0002.JPG 2003_0116stuff0002.JPG
     
  11. Invisible kid, do you know if the one in your pics is the synchro or non-synchro version?
     
  12. Haven't taken the cover off..... Just going by the net....:rolleyes: But,from what I gathered,it "should" be.......
    Not holding my breath on that one though.......maybe someone will chime in. Mid/late 60's GM from a truck.
     
  13. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    chevy manual trans.jpg

    EDIT: Found a pic of the earlier trans....this is a '58/'64 with the shorter tail housing and rear mount pad. The '55/'57 is the same main case, longer tail housing and no rear mount. You can see how much shorter the main case and side cover are compared to the full syncro model under discussion.


    the below comments are in reference to Invisible kid's trans pictured in a post #10.....................
    It is the full syncro model. The main case is longer, the side cover has more bolts......put it side by side with the earlier non-syncro 1st gear trans and the differences are unmistakable. to my knowledge, the case type you have was never produced in a non-syncro 1st gear version. Maybe a googler serach could turn up a pic of the other trans, there were produced in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

    Ray
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
  14. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 57,971

    squirrel
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If it's a Saginaw, then it's a full synchromesh transmission. If it's the old 4 bolt side cover Muncie, then it only has synchros in 2nd and 3rd.
     
    saltracer219 likes this.
  15. Hey Ray and Jim- Does the "model" I have represent a full syncro unit? I can pull it to check,but with this info from you both,I'm thinking it is. Thanks.
     
  16. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    I absolutely believe yours is a full syncro model. I have one just like it (minus the shifter bracket) laying in my shop right now......also collecting dust. :D

    Ray
     
    INVISIBLEKID likes this.
  17. I have been doing some more searching and found this pic.

    [​IMG]

    The guy said it was a Saginaw 55-65 3spOD.
    So I guess that would be the non-synchro version.
     
  18. Thank You!:D
     
  19. The guy steered you straight. It's a non syncro 3 speed O.D. with the 4 bolt cover and the full syncros were a lot bigger with the 7 bolt cover...easy peasy.
    BTW, the full syncro model also came with overdrive -[rare] and some guys use the overdrive unit behind the saginaw 4 speed trannys...4 speed with overdrive!
    Also, I've had a lot better luck with the full syncro 3 speeds...stronger.
     
  20. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL


    Yes, that is the non-synchro 1st gear trans. However, it appears to be for a '55 thru '57 model because of the length of the tailhousing and no rear mount pad.
    On '55/'57 cars, the trans just hangs off the back of the bellhousing with no additional support. The basic trans is the same for '58 thru '64, but is shorter and has the mount pad as mentioned previously. The '65 may have a longer tailhousing, but also had a rear mount, so this transmission is not a '65, in my opinion.

    Ray
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
    jimmy six likes this.
  21. Thanks guys. I think I know what I'm looking for now.
     
  22. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 57,971

    squirrel
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The non-synchro 1st transmission is a Muncie, although a lot of guys don't know or care, and call it a Saginaw.

    I can see why you would be confused.
     
    X-cpe likes this.
  23. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,695

    56sedandelivery
    Member Emeritus

    That would be a MUNCIE 319 transmission-non-synchro first gear. Without the overdrive it is a MUNCIE 318 transmission, and the same non synchro first bgear. Very WEAK transmissions, but do fine as long as you don't beat on them. The Saginaws, later MUNCIE 3-speeds, and the later Borg Warner 3-speeds are all full synchro. Those last 2, 3 speeds are somewhat harder to find (E-Bay's a good source). The later Saginaw 3-speed with overdrive is the trans used to convert a Saginaw 4-speed into a 4 speed with overdrive; they share the same main case and main shaft. That photo/work bench sure looks like Tom Parsons/DZAUTO over on ChevyTalk.Org, and he calls the transmission a SAGINAW. All the books, and parts houses refer to it as a MUNCIE however. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
    Torkwrench likes this.
  24. USA Tires Sign Joe
    Joined: Aug 13, 2006
    Posts: 1,072

    USA Tires Sign Joe
    Member
    from Western NJ

    No more double clutchin'!
     
  25. Rian
    Joined: May 29, 2019
    Posts: 13

    Rian

    So My C10 as a 3 speed manual A for bolt side Cover. So it is a Muncie for sure?
     
  26. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,695

    56sedandelivery
    Member Emeritus

    ^^^^ `100 % for sure^^^^. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  27. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 8,661

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    I decided to hit the fast lane on the freeway yesterday, about 75mph, with my Muncie 318 and 3:55s. Really revving. Could I put an overdrive unit behind it, same length? '56 Corvette, has rear mount.
     
  28. D'Monsta
    Joined: Jun 24, 2008
    Posts: 88

    D'Monsta
    Member

    Yes. I did it to my 66 GMC truck. If it's a long tailshaft transmission in there now the SM319 w/OD will bolt right in and work great. My truck has 3:54 rear.. What had been 70 @ 3000 RPM is now 70 @ 1800 RPM
     

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  29. X-cpe
    Joined: Mar 9, 2018
    Posts: 2,132

    X-cpe

    My memory says that the short tail shafts were found in vehicles w/ 2 piece driveshafts and long tail shafts were found in vehicles w/ 1 piece driveshafts. Pick up transmissions had the bottom 2 holes threaded because the bolts were put in from inside the bell housing.
     

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