Register now to get rid of these ads!

First Front End

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by scl009, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. scl009
    Joined: Jul 28, 2009
    Posts: 33

    scl009
    Member

    Welp its painfully obvious that this is the first Front end I've ever put together. Its a conglomerate of split 31 AA wishbones, F250 superduty spindles/rotors/brakes, stock AA springs, and a dodge ram rack and pinion.

    I was estatic when I was putting it together, feeling like I was making my first real progress. Now its together and the "toe" (I think) is definitely off, probably by about 5 degrees. I also need to do some more mods to the tie rods so the wheels will be more parallel.

    Sorry about the pics, my garage is a little cramped right now. If anyone's in the New Orleans, LA area and wants to come give some pointers, I could really use it.

    Scott
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,770

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Is that a rack and pinion I see mounted behind the front crossmember?
     
  3. scl009
    Joined: Jul 28, 2009
    Posts: 33

    scl009
    Member

    Yep from a 2002 dodge ram, I was really trying to go all ford, but wasn't finding too many realistic options

    And I'm sure glad I built the bracket from wood first, needs to be way higher.
     
  4. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,221

    F&J
    Member

    I can't tell from the picture angles, but it sounds like you mean "camber", and not toe? Toe is when the wheels are not quite parallel, just turned in about 1/8" or so.

    Camber is measured from the wheel from being 90 degrees to the level ground. A one degree postive camber setting would be the wheel is tipped out at the top 1 degree. Negative is when the top is tipped inwards.




    If the rack is mounted on the frame, you will get bump steer. As the frame goes up or down, the wheels will either toe in, or toe out. Not too good to have it that way.
     

  5. VoodooTwin
    Joined: Jul 13, 2011
    Posts: 3,455

    VoodooTwin
    Member
    from Noo Yawk

    Toe looks way off, but the Ackerman looks way worse. Are the steering arms providing any kind of proper Ackerman? If not, heat and bend em. But do it properly, do a search for the best method.

    F&J is right on; the bump steer with that setup will be scary/dangerous. I recommend you ditch the R&P, or mount it directly to the axle. But that looks kinda hokey and certainly not traditional. A geared box would work better.
     
  6. pitman
    Joined: May 14, 2006
    Posts: 5,151

    pitman

    If you want to search here on the HAMB, there are many good threads that discuss front end setups and specs. They will cover the usual trad. approach well.
    I have run rack and pinions mounted directly on three different Chev or Ford beam axles with good results.
    Make sure the geometry and clearance are OK when you make up cardboard or 1/4 inch plywood mount "model" pieces. The final mounting will need strength across, to handle steering loads and vertically, to maintain its location as the axle is bounced underway on the road. Find a good telescoping slip joint (GM) to connect to the column steering shaft, and use supporting 'shaft' bearings as needed..
     
  7. JohnEvans
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,883

    JohnEvans
    Member
    from Phoenix AZ

    And why in the world are you going to use 8 lug hubs. You building a mud bogger? Throw out the R&P and 3/4 ton hubs/brake/spindles and start over. Using that parts combo is going to make a odd looking ill handling mess. Sorry but thats the way it is.
     
  8. outlawsteel
    Joined: Feb 19, 2009
    Posts: 360

    outlawsteel
    Member

    Man I hate to say this and Im not trying to be mean. But you need to scrap that idea and go back to the drawing board. Get rid of the rack and go with a box. You have alot of issues going on on that front end.
     
  9. Bounce on the frame horn, and notice how much the Toe changes.

    Then research "Bumpsteer".
     
  10. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Egads, a rack on the frame is a ultra super bad idea as others have mentioned. I may get the reply about stomping on someone's dreams as I have on another thread the last day or two, but physics doesn't know anything about dreams. Yes it can be mounted to the beam, but then slip joints have a bad habit of wearing out quickly, and Ackerman usually becomes the next problem. Oh turning radius too. Grab a '53-'56 F-100 box, put your stock spindles back on and adapt some discs or juice drums before you hurt yourself or some one else. It sounds like a broken record to those that want to think outside the box, but the reason is does is because it works. Please.
     
  11. scl009
    Joined: Jul 28, 2009
    Posts: 33

    scl009
    Member

    Yeah y'all are right camber is about 3-5 degrees positive. My toe is off because my drivers side tie rod needs some more tweaking, it makes it toe in.

    I'll dismantle and see how bad the rack and pinion would look mounted to the axle. My clearance sucks for a gearbox. But if I can find something that works I'll go with that.

    I'm using the superduty front hubs because I'm using the matching free floating dually rearend in the back. Plus it gives me nicely packaged disk brakes all around and is about the same size as the 31 AA drums. I hope to be able to haul some pretty serious loads on top of the hydraulic stake bed, when I finish the project in ten years.

    Thanks guys
    Scott
     
  12. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 30,823

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Just from looking at the photos it appears that you have at least 3 degrees positive caster with that setup.

    Ok you answered my question while I was posting with a decent answer but you are going to have to take it to a front end shop that can handle I beam axles and have them set the caster at something that will work

    Sometimes what seems like a bright assed Idea isn't a great idea at all when you step back and take a serious look at it and that rack and pinion setup is one of those. Along with eating tires because the toe in is constantly changing it will have extreme bump steer.
     
  13. Only way to fix the camber being wrong is to bend the axle. Your kingpin inclination is not correct for the spindles you are using. I understand the 8 lug stiff as you are trying to build a big truck look. Big truck shops that still deal with solid axles should have the equipment to bend your axle to proper camber. Is your caster right? It sounds like you should brush up on front end geometry. Caster is determined by your split radius rods. Toe is easy to adjust with the tie rod ends. But your setup with the frame mounted rack will give bumpsteer. Ackerman is also important.
     
  14. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,535

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    If your planning on hauling heavy loads, you should step up to parallel leaf springs on the front, that single buggy spring and heavy weight are a bad combo.
     
  15. JohnEvans
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,883

    JohnEvans
    Member
    from Phoenix AZ

    Ok I see the point about the 8 lug wheels . Go cross steer and 2-3 ujoints in the steering shaft fixs most clearance issues. Beam axle with a rack is never a GOOD idea. Can be made to work yeah kinda half assed,and totally wrong on that project if you plan on hauling a load. Axle can be bent to fix the camber issue.
     
  16. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,221

    F&J
    Member

    Most people will advise you to go cross steer over to the right spindle arm, and use a steering box. I would do the same.


    One I did do 30 years ago; there was no extra tapered hole on the right side arm, to hook the crosslink to. So I found a tie rod for a mid-late 70s Bronco 4x4 that has a spare hole for a steering damper. Then I fipped it around to have that hole on the right side.


    Here is a pic of a 73-87 style Chevy 4x4 tie rod with a tapered hole for the damper, so you get an idea. I have no idea if Ford/Chev/Dodge use different sized tapers, but you might find one that fits your spindle arm tapers.

    I just don't recall if I had to shorten and rethread the opposite end to get the width correct. These are solid tie rods, with only one adjustable end with a locking sleeve.


    Steering box; there must be something heavy duty to fit in there. I had used a GM Saginaw 605 P/S box, but maybe you can find the standard non-power that would replace that one, as it should be strong. I can't recall the number; 525?

    A vega box is way too light for your needs.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Before you go any further, you need to get educated on Caster, Camber, Toe and Ackerman. They all need to be paid attention to or you will not be happy in the end.
     
  18. scl009
    Joined: Jul 28, 2009
    Posts: 33

    scl009
    Member

    Ok guys I appreciate the help, but can anyone point me in the direction of some GOOD reading material for steering geometry. The books I own and the stuff I keep finding on the web are useless. All they say is buy this and bolt it on, and that is definitely not the direction I'm going with this project.

    Also what do you guys think about a Saginaw 605 or 800? Anyone have one that can get me some ruff measurements, or know what I can pull one from in the yard?
     
  19. 117harv
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 6,590

    117harv
    Member

    How to build an early hotrod frame here is a great thread if you haven't seen it, there is some on front susp. setups tech.

    Not to pile on but big discs and rack look so modern and they are on an early Ford I-beam axle? If you have to keep the solid axle I would do as suggested and go a heavier paralell spring axle. You can run a conventional box either cross or side steer, you just have to make it fit.

    There is alot of great info here on front susp. setups, it just takes some time searching. Do a search on thread titles only using different key words...you will be rewarded.
     
  20. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,221

    F&J
    Member

    I get your point, but from where he is right now, I'd try to stick with the transverse.


    On the 605, mine was from a 68 firebird, but 605 was a very common box on lots of GM brands. I know nothing about the 800.


    The 605 is pretty beefy, I think it would work well...or check into that 800.


    EDIT; The mounting of the paralell springs; the Model A has very short front frame horns, so that's another reason to stay with transverse.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  21. treb11
    Joined: Jan 21, 2006
    Posts: 3,708

    treb11
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    running an inline 6 you should have gobs of clearance at the toeboard/firewall point where most GB's would be mounted. 53-56 F100 or a Mustang mounted like they are used with 4-bar setups would work. and yes, the only proper way to use a R&P with a solid axle is to mount it to the axle itself.
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.