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Technical First attempt at filling the roof on my 35 5W. Advice needed.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Do it Over, Apr 17, 2020.

  1. I always thought a quick fix for a flexing wheel would be a 4x4 jammed between the top of the tool and a ceiling beam or door header.
     
  2. nochop
    Joined: Nov 13, 2005
    Posts: 3,818

    nochop
    Member
    from norcal

    A for effort I’d say
     
  3. It does help with the UP direction flex.
    But the upper wheel still moved in side to side direction.
    That HF Ewheel ain’t a bad “starter kit”
    The frame needs braced up just like the bead rollers do. The anvils need to be trued and polished which becomes very apparent once the frame flex is gone and the work pieces get bigger and the anvils start making complete revolutions. With that effort into it, the thing does work it’s just rough. think of it as a Cub Scout pinewood derby car starter kit.

    If you Dont ever use something like this then you never realize you’re missing anything and be happy.
    FF35013E-CA17-4BC1-A76E-2387BF00F998.jpeg 5DCAE9D3-9DC7-4D0E-8427-FA2EED04C445.jpeg
    ACCE1A8A-FC21-4C6D-AC78-01254BCD4DA7.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
  4. This old heavy cast iron band saw came up for sale recently.
    Should have got it.
    Thought it would be a perfect frame for an English wheel
    274854A9-DD6D-47B6-8CC8-8B41BAB7EDCF.jpeg
     
  5. You shouldn't be changing anvils. You pick the one that is closest to the finished crown you want and stick with it. Higher crown anvils will lead to problems on a low crown panel. Watch some of Wray Schelins videos on Youtube. He does the best job of explaining the difference between the area you are trying to create and then the arrangement of the panel afterwards. You can have a panel that has been wheeled to have the exact same area as another but look totally different because you don't have it in the right arrangement. He is also the only one I have seen that explains how to deal with "loose edges" by wheeling them at a 45 degree angle.
     
  6. Do it Over
    Joined: Dec 25, 2017
    Posts: 478

    Do it Over
    Member
    from NYC, NY

    Wheeing at a 45° angle?
     
  7. Do it Over
    Joined: Dec 25, 2017
    Posts: 478

    Do it Over
    Member
    from NYC, NY

    Took the first rainbow panel and tried to flatten it out some. Stomped it pretty good but only got minimum results. Decided to try manually manipulating the shape like I did with the small panel and it somewhat worked. Rolling/flexing/denying it side to side took out a lot of the front to back arch. I'm gonna lightly wheel it to remove the ruts the stretch the center area to gain some crown. 20200420_155814.jpg 20200420_155834.jpg 20200420_155901.jpg
     
    1morecarIpromise! likes this.
  8. Rather than stomping on it you should be bending it the opposite direction as it is bending now to get it to flatten out. Again if you haven't yet watch Wray's videos you should. Make some external gauges like he does for side to side and front to back. You need a guide to go off of not just guessing. The flexible shape patterning that he does may be difficult because you don't have a panel to copy but you could use the gauges to set you arrangement. Here are a couple of basic ones. If you have the time watch his series on the E type bonnet build (or at least a few of them). The videos are long but they have a ton of information that is pertinent to your project.


     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  9. Do it Over
    Joined: Dec 25, 2017
    Posts: 478

    Do it Over
    Member
    from NYC, NY

    Only got to do a little wheeling before the rain started. Very light pressure smoothed out a lot of the ruts. There's still lots of tension in the panel. Going to try wheeling the edges to relieve some stress. Going to slowly raise some crown after I smooth the panel some more. 20200421_124945.jpg 20200421_124951.jpg 20200421_125009.jpg 20200421_125017.jpg 20200421_125032.jpg 20200421_125049.jpg
     
    kidcampbell71, brEad and GordonC like this.
  10. kidcampbell71 likes this.
  11. Looks to me like your edges are already too loose. Wheeling them more will make them worse.

    Sent from my 9024O using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    46international and Do it Over like this.
  12. redo32
    Joined: Jul 16, 2008
    Posts: 2,137

    redo32
    Member

    K13 is right. Stay off the edges. Wheeling a low crown panel is a slow process, almost a zen experience. You've by now should have seen on the videos an explanation of tracking patterns. Run a pattern about 12" in the center. Rotate 90 degrees and run the same size pattern. turn 45 and do again. You've already found that you should be using a low radius wheel. The ridges you put in with the high radius wheel should be laying down. An English Wheel can only do one thing.. stretch metal. If you had a deep throat shrinker you could bring the edges back down. Run a pattern 2" larger than the last. Slowly run the crown out.

    After a few classes and tons of videos and a few humble projects of my own I have come to the realization that there are as many solutions to shaping metal as there are metalshapers. Everybody has their favorite equipment and their own unique process to reach a desired shape. Ron Covel built a race car nose with simple hand tools. He started with 5 pieces that were easy to handle and welded them together. Fay Butler built a nose out of two pieces using his yoder to shrink the shape and planish the final form. You've mentioned Lazzie, he doesn't like noisy machines. On the other hand Jessie James beats metal into submission. All a matter of personality and attitude.

    Have a beer or take a toke and believe that you are smarter than that piece of metal. You can find the shape in that metal that will fit your top perfectly.
     
    brEad and Do it Over like this.
  13. Sorry took me a while to find where it was he talked about it. The video should start right before he talks about it but if not its at the 27:00 mark.

     
    Do it Over likes this.
  14. Would running a shrinking disc tighten up the edges?
     
  15. If you watch what Ray is doing,, he’s fast.
    He’s not wheeling the “edge to the end”
    He’s wheeling just inside the perimeter, which stretches everything under the wheel & NOT THE EDGE. That stretch he’s making in the metal pulls from the edge tightening it up.

    Don’t do it too much or you’ll have a lump
     
    kidcampbell71, Do it Over and alchemy like this.
  16. sliceddeuce
    Joined: Aug 15, 2017
    Posts: 2,981

    sliceddeuce
    Member

    Keep one simple fact in mind...The E Wheel is nothing more than a linear stretching device. When the metal passes between the anvils the material on each side of the contact point moves outward.
     
    Do it Over and alchemy like this.
  17. I feel bad now. Left out to be careful at the ends is a panel. Just like with a power hammer, you don’t want to hit the edges. Close but not on them.

    I have corrected the slight over stretch on an edge with a bench shrinker.
    If deeper in, there is basically 2 ways to shrink. Torch or disc.
    Unless you are lucky enough to have a deeper throat stretcher/shrinker
    A shrinking die in something like a pullmax would be a bit extreme for that low crown panel.
     
  18. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 20,406

    alchemy
    Member

    Since we have some experienced guys here, let me ask a question: Say a fella had his rough-cut (a couple inches big on all sides) panel shaped up nice, he stayed away from the edges, and the crown is perfect. Now he wants to trim the edge just perfect to weld into the roof opening. If he cuts past the "untouched" outer edge into the wheeled area, will the panel's crown change? Is it like a belt holding up the pants around that outer edge? He cuts off the non-stretched edge and the crown releases?
     
    Do it Over likes this.
  19. it could, it might not.
    One way to find out
     
    kidcampbell71 and redo32 like this.
  20. A lot will depend on how evenly the panel was wheeled.
     
  21. One of the really great metal guys I worked with made an aluminum insert for a 32. He made an exact, file fit pattern. Transcribed the pattern to a sheet of aluminum.
    Hammered out the roof panel in a Yoder hammer. The panel grew about a 1/4 if an inch from the stretching of the hammer. Trimmed and fit.
    Will cutting the extra like you suggested affect the shape? I would say little if any on a low crown shape like this.
    It you stretched or shrunk heavy on the edges that you cut off then yes. It should affect the shape.
     
  22. Do it Over
    Joined: Dec 25, 2017
    Posts: 478

    Do it Over
    Member
    from NYC, NY

    A little progress with a dash of learning.

    20200423_151609.jpg 20200423_151636.jpg 20200421_174841.jpg
     
  23. Do it Over
    Joined: Dec 25, 2017
    Posts: 478

    Do it Over
    Member
    from NYC, NY

    a little more of the same and a bunch of something new. 31Vicky told me how to utilize the shrinking disc when I was making my roof panel but I didn't want to. I was trying to focus on learning how to wheel and didn't want add to my struggle. This time after wasting days stalling I broke out the shrinking disc and took his advice. Thanks 31Vicky for getting me over the hump. I'm gonna lightly wheel out the ruts I put in this panel and raise a part on the left side. I won't have anyone to assist me with wheeling a new panel for at least a couple weeks as my best bud Melvin is hiding from the virus and my son has finals. I'll practice fixing up this one in the mean time but it may end up being the winner as I gotta get to work on my Pan.

    20200423_183546.jpg 20200423_183537.jpg 20200423_183601.jpg 20200423_183613.jpg 20200423_183621.jpg 20200423_183634.jpg 20200423_184231.jpg
     
  24. Whoooo hooo!!
    We can trade that advice for the pan head
     
  25. Do it Over
    Joined: Dec 25, 2017
    Posts: 478

    Do it Over
    Member
    from NYC, NY

    So can those who have done it both ways tell me again how I'll ruin the job if I TIG it overlapped? I know that a butt weld can be hammered and the roof can be worked smooth but I have no desire to metal finish this roof as the chop is not so well done. This roof is destined for several pounds of lead.
     
  26. Here’s what I know,
    You’ll make your way around with the welder a lot faster. You’ll save yourself a few hours but only one time. Then you’ll get to pay for those hours over and over and over again someplace down the road.
    You’ll probably wind up with a potato chip roof either way,, one way you can bump out most of it 90% ( save that no filler metal finish stuff) the other way you’re just gonna be stuck with filling everything up to the highest high spot that you couldn’t get out.

    Then there’s the whole thing where you maybe get a ghost line under the paint.
     
    Do it Over likes this.
  27. If over lapping, mig it
    I prefer butt welding and TIG
    I understand your roof has issues.
    Lots and lots of roofs are cruising around overlapped.
    It’s up to you
     
  28. Do it Over
    Joined: Dec 25, 2017
    Posts: 478

    Do it Over
    Member
    from NYC, NY

    Why MIG instead of TIG ?
     
  29. Mig is easier and quicker on the lap.
    The advantage of tig is its easier to
    hammer and dolly. The metal finishing is easier.
    Not much to metal finish on a lap weld. Just grinding.
     
    Do it Over and K13 like this.
  30. MIG is also less likely to add too much heat because you can skip around doing one spot at a time. You can do that with TIG as well but it sucks up a LOT of gas with the pre and post flow for every tack.
     
    Do it Over and anthony myrick like this.

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