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Technical fed/altered dual-disc clutches...let's dicuss

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Zig Zag Wanderer, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. Zig Zag Wanderer
    Joined: Jul 6, 2007
    Posts: 564

    Zig Zag Wanderer
    Member

    so there was a lot of good discussion about dual-disc clutches for a "tire-smoker" type launch in Rocky Phillips thread when he was putting together his "Evil Twin" dragster


    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=533613


    i'm hoping this thread goes somewhere. i have some other questions as i am collecting parts for a "full-body" Henry J BB/FA build, circa 1965, high gear only, Pre-Slipper clutch era, Pre-Wrinklewall Slick era.

    burn the tires down to the 1000 foot mark with no contemporary burnout routine. remember that ET's and 60 foot times meant almost nothing in those days. it was all about building tire speed

    most of the catalogs of the era show bonded sintered iron facings (likely the "grabbier" 5135 material for a "hard hit" (shock the tires right away to get them spinning).

    can anyone comment on the suitability of four-puck Velvetouch facings for this? i purchased two new-old-stock Schiefer discs similar to these (shown below). technically a paddle style with four pucks, but with circular-shaped solid hubs with slots separating the four quadrants.

    the price was right, but did i throw my money away?

    [​IMG]


    i also have access to a new-old-stock Schiefer 11" Ford/Long-style pressure plate with a ductile ring and 3200lbs static pressure. it has a unique heavy-duty cover that has 3 additional mounting hole bosses for a total of 9 mounting holes. it does not have the centrifugal levers on it. i am assuming the ring and cover are up to task but i will have to have a specialty clutch shop install centrifugal levers? can anyone recommend a rebuilder (these will have to be SFI inpected/tested anyways for certification)

    does anyone know of an existing catalog item for an 11" Long-style floater-plate and stand-kit? Hays is no help here. their tech people don't acknowledge the existence of specialized drag racing clutches, in-spite of the componentry being available thru Jegs.

    McLeod's truck/tractor pull clutch fits the bill, but its a package, has a Borg & Beck cover (floater plate has different pattern); oh and the package is a cool 2300 bux. and its not balanced. it should be balanced and gold plated for that price

    speaking of SFI "certing", is it mandatory for dual-disc clutches to be re-certed after a certain period of time/number of runs?


    i was going to nick Rocky's idea of converting a RUG ford 3-speed into an in-and-out box with a reverser so i want to use a conventional hydroformed "doorslammer" scattershield instead of a clutch can.

    this will still be a tube framed car (3" round DOM .118 wall, similar to a Chassis Research R-16, but wider), it will have a motor plate, rigid rear axle, greek couplers inside a torque tube.

    any certifying or NHRA issues with sticking a clutch like this into a conventional scattershield rather than a "can"
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  2. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,258

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    If one bases his program on old parts, make sure there is enough of them out there to replace the first ones when they go bad
     
  3. GOATROPER02
    Joined: Mar 22, 2006
    Posts: 2,059

    GOATROPER02
    Member
    from OHIO

    And race tracks are not the same as "the golden era" ....they actually have bite
     
  4. AA/FA 0045
    Joined: Nov 7, 2013
    Posts: 125

    AA/FA 0045
    Member

    Why not just over inflate the tires?
     

  5. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,258

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Any clutch that needs a cert , must be done by the original manufacturer and the manufacturer must still be in the SFI program building those componants.
     
  6. Zig Zag Wanderer
    Joined: Jul 6, 2007
    Posts: 564

    Zig Zag Wanderer
    Member

    Tony and Bruce,

    thanks for the responses.

    i'm aware of the glued tracks. it was well covered in the tire smoker thread.

    Rocky's car has enough torque to overcome the bite of various track with 2 mild 327 engines on the hard narrow pie-crust slicks. i propose that a blown 451 big-block mopar on methanol could probably do the same.

    Bruce,

    wasn't Scheifer swallowed whole in one of the Mr. Gasket group deals then phased out because of product overlap etc. (Hays?)

    if so could the "Surviving" company do the SFI testing if in the program?

    this car would be built for probably 3 yearly events where cars like it are welcomed; limited use and for fun. hopefully overbuilt and easy on parts.
     
  7. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,258

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Sometimes they put a date limit on certain componants, Lakewood for instance will not re certify a bellhouseing that is pre # XXXXXX as "THEY" feel the material has aged too far. The testing is just visual observence and repair or replaceing worn parts. Why would any company want to take responcability for somone else's product that is 20-30 years old?

    Also , please dont keep Editing the first post
     
  8. Zig Zag Wanderer
    Joined: Jul 6, 2007
    Posts: 564

    Zig Zag Wanderer
    Member

    sorry about the edits Bruce,

    i fat-fingered the "post reply" before i had all the questions written. i did not even know you guys responded til i refreshed the page; then i responded
     
  9. Zig Zag Wanderer
    Joined: Jul 6, 2007
    Posts: 564

    Zig Zag Wanderer
    Member

     
  10. dragsled
    Joined: May 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,976

    dragsled
    Member
    from Panama IA

    Mine was buildt for basicly the same purpose ,But as far as trying to get it certified I doubt it will happen so I'm useing common sense and over building it, I can also run it at a few outlaw tracks, but as far an NHRA sanctioned track it would be VERY hard to get it through tech,, So in my long winded way of saying things, Use your head and common sense, And be safe ,,, Tim Jones
     
  11. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,258

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Welcome to racing
     
  12. Zig Zag Wanderer
    Joined: Jul 6, 2007
    Posts: 564

    Zig Zag Wanderer
    Member

    LOL:rolleyes:
     
  13. Zig Zag Wanderer
    Joined: Jul 6, 2007
    Posts: 564

    Zig Zag Wanderer
    Member

    dragsled, thanks for the encouragement. guess i will be running outlaw!
     
  14. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,258

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Just remember-- When running outlaw YOU are responsable for everthing
     
  15. dragsled
    Joined: May 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,976

    dragsled
    Member
    from Panama IA

  16. Zig Zag Wanderer
    Joined: Jul 6, 2007
    Posts: 564

    Zig Zag Wanderer
    Member

    Tim

    no pix yet. i'm making (i'm a toolroom machinist) and gathering parts. i will start a thread in the next couple of months as i'm machining and fabbing a tube front axle and a Fuller-style torsion bar front for it

    your link and comment brings me to this and i will direct this at Bruce as well.

    i have no intention of skirting around current SFI standards for ET and weight, for a 7.50 or slower car. this is not a "tell me what i want to hear" thread.

    this car will have a LOT more tube in it than a 1965 car would have. to keep it looking "vintage yet updated" it will have at its core, hoops that have larger radii bends. those cages that have the 6-inch "doorslammer" radii look like ass

    i would like to find an SFI compliant custom clutch shop that is willing to build me what i want, IE; a counter-weighted 11" Long style heavy duty cover, 3200 lbs static pressure, ductile ring, sintered iron facings, stands floater plate, et al.

    i am soliciting opinions from you guys about experiences with such setups. i would also like to know about flywheels. is steel or aluminum preferred?

    my big problem with the Mcleod unit is that for the money, it's not even balanced. it shows contempt for their customers since they are the only large clutch manufacturer that seem to offer such a package

    my "outlaw" comment was aimed more at the likelihood that a local NHRA tech guy will be throwing up his arms in befuddlement at the sight of something that is not cookie-cutter racefab for a 7.50 or slower car. it will all be there, it will just look a little different
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
  17. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,258

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Man if you think Mcleod is pricey, dont inquire about East/West or Titan.
    This is not the 60's anymore its 20XX and you will not find a small little shop that makes this style of clutch that has the ability to put an SFI sticker on it. The paper work and testing can cost thousands and thousands before it even gets to the point of sale, and since there are not 500 of people out there with the same desire as you, most outfits would rather not deal with a couple of sales vs loseing a stack of money.
    The reason they dont ballence is that the disc's and floater plates are consumables in racing and are not that presise a fit (move around) so during maintenence and changing those consumables at the track, the balence is going to change
     
  18. dragsled
    Joined: May 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,976

    dragsled
    Member
    from Panama IA

    Zig Zag . I hope you didn't my coments and the link to be a slam on what you want to do, Back in the late 70's and 80's when I last ran my own car, this sue happy world wasn't as common as it is now., Out were Bruce is sanctioned tracks are pretty much all they have now days, Out in the midwest thare are still a few non sanctioned tracks, Like I said I'm building mine as safe as I can for what I'm working with, What motor are you planning on useing,, Tim Jones
     
  19. Zig Zag Wanderer
    Joined: Jul 6, 2007
    Posts: 564

    Zig Zag Wanderer
    Member

    no Tim,

    i didn't take it as any kind of slam, no worries. i do think with all the right stuff, a car like this could pass tech, depending on the tech guy.

    i'm planning a 451 ci low-deck big-block mopar (413 crank in a 400 block). 6-71 blown on methanol, overdriven 20 to 25%, 11.3 cr forged flat-tops, GRP aluminum rods. nothing fancy, no teflon in the blower, just a normal blower conversion/pinning/blueprint.

    block will be filled up to the bottom of the water pump ports.

    shorter 6.188 rods so i can use off-the shelf 4.15 stroke pistons for 440's. less piston rock, 1.65 rod stroke ratio will make it more detonation resistant and pick up the mid-range (important in a high gear only car)

    a home-built low-rise blower intake will be made from an Offy single plane intake for 383-400. i will add an SFI burst plate on the bottom (out of sight).

    for heads i do like the new 440 Source Stealth aluminum heads. first, they look the part, very similar to a '64-'65 iron head. they flow good out of the box and even better with some mild work. aluminum heads are really needed an an alcohol motor.

    cam will be roller. old-style grind thats easy on heavy valvetrain parts, something like IO 60 IC 96 EO 96 EC 60 with about .590 max lift on 108 degree lobe centers.

    first-generation Mallory Super-mag

    i'd like to set up a cooling system similar to Bruce's car with a Kuhl River Rat pump feeding in between the exhaust ports and exiting thru the water pump ports

    i'll probably run an extra Moon-type tank up front for coolant as well as one for fuel.

    no worries Bruce, no flip-top caps on the tanks!
     

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