Fear & Loathing The Classic Car Dealer

to me,i believe you're talking about the deception used by these mf'ers.

some people actually think that's ok.

 

I think I still have missed your point, Ryan. Is the hot rod world better or worse because of the technology today? Are there unscrupulous car salesmen? Are the bad deals waiting unsuspecting buyers on the Internet? Caveat Emptor, a fool and his money are soon parted. There's a sucker born every day. Technology hasn't changed those maxims, just enabled them to happen more quickly and over a global neighborhood rather than within a 50 mile radius of home. It's a thought provoking read you posted but I'm still a little puzzled about where you were going with the rhetoric. Obviously this is a sore subject with a lot of folks and you did a good job of raising a discussion.

 

Sorry boss. I enjoy your posts but this one is stupid.....I'm short on time and haven't read all the replies yet.

1. this isn't something new, it's been going on for a long time.
2. Just as often is the other side of the coin where the seller fails to divulge some major problem that they know is there.

P.S. I am not a classic car dealer.

 

Ryan, You said that you had, and still have, a friend that's a Classic Car dealer. Is he one of those guys that only takes and never gets back? If so, why is he still your friend? If not, then all classic car dealers don't qualify. What does your friend feel the grand purpose of his job is? Make a living for him and his family? In today's world I think you could put the phrase "fear & loathing" in front of just about any type of business. There's good and bad in all of them. In the almost 6 years I've been a member of HAMB I've read threads where mere mortals on here have made great deals because of someone's ignorance.
Just my opinion..I'm not, nor have I ever been a dealer.......Mike

 

Wise words from a wise man.

 

This thread is kind of a sore point for me. I've worked in the automotive industry my entire life. Now retired, I look back over the years of working with and for classic car dealers. I have to honestly say that every classic car dealer (and every bread and butter car dealer for that matter) will steal your teeth IF you let them.

I'm sure there must be some exceptions. Theres got to be a few good dealers out there but they are few and far between. Most will take advantage of you if they can. I've been burned more times than I care to remember whenever I was stupid enough to let my guard down. You just have to be ever alert and ever skeptical.

That said, all consumers have the responsibilty to do their homework and trust no one. Regardless if they are sellers or buyers they have to be able to take care of themselves or they will fall victim to unscrupulous and unethical classic car dealers.

 

I didn't take the time to read everyone's comments. However, I'll say this. To me, it's not an issue of reselling a collectible item be it a car or anything else. Rather, I take issue with the deceit and overall lack of integrity and authenticity.

"Teddie" could have still profitted and been honest. Add to that, he could have represented the car for what it is, done less work (no need to hide) and had a customer willing to return OR better yet tell his buddy about a Ted, the guy that finds good deals and passes them on while making a few bucks.

 

Well Said , as Ryan said it does not include all but there are some good ones , I have the knowledge on cars to research my own purchases however I find being in that industry that people who do not or can't be bothered doing the research look to Dealers to help them with their purchase , that's where it all falls apart , the good guys will help , the Devils swoop .

I have to say though , when I get excited about a purchase even I go in blind with rose coloured glasses sometimes , it happens.......but if you take drugs to solve anything like scotty , man , stay away from the car scene !!

cad

 

if a dealer has to bad mouth the average joe trying to sell a car
that's a pretty good sign that dealer is a scumbag

it's called denial through distraction.

instead of addressing the issue,they turn the subject to a totally different person to throw the blame another direction.

typical car pumper bullshit

 

Being in any business is hard. If the last few years have taught us anything, most of us should understand that. However, the issue of integrity is important. If a business is to survive, it must do obviously by being profitable, in the long run, I agree that integrity and value play a big role too. Whether you're buying a car paying someone to do work on it, we all value and look for vendors that will provide a good value for our $$. Businesses are just a reflection of the people that operate them and perhaps this is why we all prefer to do business with those that we know. Although I don't know most or maybe any of you personally, I have a perception that there are people with whom I can have an honest discussion on the HAMB and people who will give me good advice because of our shared passion. No doubt there are some scoundrels on here too, but as a whole, the community is a positive one. I have asked and received very good answers to wide ranging questions related to cars in general on this board. I've used several HAMB Alliance vendors specifically because of this connection and always been treated well. However, as a business person myself, I completely agree with Ryan's notion that good business involves giving your customer more than they expect - and striving to go beyond their expectations. In the end, whether we do business in person, over the internet, or any other way, service and integrity are the only ways we can distinguish our businesses from others. The world is filled with old sayings about "getting what you pay for..." "never regretting quality" and on and on. The point being that there is more to a transaction than the commodity that changes hands. A dealer that doesn't add value or conduct their business with integrity ultimately will fail - either to get repeat business or to stay in business at all. Also, I've found that anytime the world starts churning out TV shows aimed at "flipping" something for profit, that's probably a good time to get out of that racket.

This has been a good thread, it's interesting to read the perspectives of others.

 

"This is a great deal. A dealer would charge you far more for this same car".

Sign of a scumbag?

"We as a dealer offer you a warranty against the drivetrain for X miles, that's something you won't get by buying off the street".

Sign of a scumbag?

 

Ryan...with utmost respect...I have to raise some issues about this post...

I think that there are several expectations that are unrealistic;

Like others have said here above, if Grandma doesnt get what she wanted for the Riv...is she being taken advantage of? I think that anytime someone offers or buys something for less than what its worth or what the owner is asking...is taking an "advantage". Is that unusual or unfair? Hell no...happens all the time...has happened since the dawn of time...and happens everywhere. Can a transaction be unseemly? Yes it can be...in the situation you laid out Grandma was selling the car to build a deck, and never did..that is sad...but has nothing to do with whether the buyer of the Rivi took advantage of Grandma...How about a guy that brings his dads old stuff to the swapmeet and offers a rare intake for $50 when you know its worth $500? How many would offer the amount it is worth? Expecting someone to pay what something is "worth" is unreasonable...

What was Scott expecting for $9000? After all its a 45 year old desirable car...in the writeup you didnt mention that the car was restored...it was a slightly pooped up for resale survivor. I see '65 Rivis for sale all the time that seemed overpriced...$9000 for one like you mentioned doesnt seem that bad to me. Why was Scott expecting fresh window rubbers, perfect unpitted road wheels and to not have to tinker with a 45 year old car? That also seems unreasonable to me....

You mentioned two people's lives were ruined in this one deal...that is a little hyperbolic isnt it? Grandma got 4k...she might have wanted more but agreed to that price...Scott bought a desirable 45 year old car for a reasonable amount of money...that hold on...needed more worth than he expected. If that is "ruination" sign me up!

While I know some of the post was tongue in cheek...some will read this here and miss the point as you have already posted...in a perfect world everyone will be happy and buy and sell stuff for exactly their price...but that hasn't happened yet. All bets are off if Teddie tells grandma that stuff is wrong with her car when it isnt or is generally an asshole to buy the car cheap....but if he offers her an amount of money that she agrees to...well that seems ok....

I think Scott should have come on the Hamb and hit us up before hitting the "buy it now" ...we would have set him straight..

Lastly ...profit is good, just done lie to get it, and flippers/dealers/hobbyists do give back..in different ways...simply by getting that '65 Rivi back on the road generates a ripple effect of goodness.

ps...Teddie might be making payments on his F250 which eliminates the part about the "rich" taking advantage of a poor old lady...

 

yeah,right.

youre such a good guy you'll sell that warranty for only $1000

more bullshit..

before you throw that crap around,you should make sure nobody knows that scam.

 

As someone who operates as a dealer in old cars -

In 2007 we bought 40 cars that would otherwise all be crushed by now. And that is the truth - one scrap dealer came into this yard in February and was ripping cars to pieces, or picking them up with 12 inches of frozen dirt attached to the bottom in a giant pad, I got to stand by as several decent cars got pressed - some that I remember were a '40 Plymouth coupe, a '60 Pontiac Catalina 2-door hardtop, a Stude Lark convertible that looked showroom new under the hood, and while I was gone a Model T that was up and rolling got plucked because it was by the road and easy to get to... so don't start in on "what do we give back." It was sheer luck the loader operator was good enough to return the money I paid for two cars I knew I couldn't even move until March or April after that group left, left a mess of old oil and crap in the ground, and the owner of the outfit had no intention of going back. I paid for them so the other loader operator wouldn't smash the shit out of them when I wasn't there.

And then when we did go back and actually start getting cars out, every damned dime of profit we made went back into buying cars and hauling them home. I had the dickheads running the place for the old man who owned it calling me a thief and trying to ruin my reputation, and on and on and I still went back until they'd cleaned it right out. If we have it, then it's still out there for a guy to build - if it gets crushed, no one gets so much as a nut or bolt off it.

And I would do it again in a heartbeat, preferrably with more money from the start, because I could easily have taken 150 cars out of there - some because they were desirable, others just plain because they were in pretty decent shape particularly for upstate New York cars that had been sitting in the dirt for 40 or 50 years. There were a few that were a good detailing and cleaning away from being showable, even the laziest whiny bastards who crap their pants over a little rust would have liked them. You know who you are. It still makes me sick to think about the '55 Ford 4-door with the shiny black paint, red wheels, and perfect interior that they smashed the top in on so they could stack another car on top of it while I was buying something else.

 

But at the end of the day, it is the good people I have befriended that make it worth while. I place a huge surplus in that.

 

I don't sell warranty's. I'm not in the business. Many do offer up warranty's on what they sell and use it as a selling point against the guy in the street.

Again, that makes him a scumbag?

 

I've seen it happen many times but the car world is much smaller than most would think... most snakes get caught (hopefully sooner than later) and their reputation will precede them so others won't get scammed!

Holy crap... I hit the "Trifecta" for goodness sake... I was a licensed Car salesperson... a licensed Real Estate agent... Licensed Insurance Agent...!

But I didn't get a "Law Degree to become a Lawyer... But I am a Licensed Private Detective...!!!!

I had to edit this post to share one of many positive experience's with Bobwop... he had me look at a car for him which was located close to where I live... the car was an original SS and relatively straight and clean.

So Bob showed up a bit later with his trailer and money and started crawling under the car and was extensively examining the chassis and found a portion of the frame rusted through as well as a couple of other anomalies common for that make, model, and year. These were things I didn't see partially because I was unaware of these issues and that he pointed them out to me.

He told me that he wouldn't trust selling something with those issues and that his customers expect higher standards from him!

I was pleasantly surprised when he said that... and passed on the deal.

 

Isn`t what the dealer is doing just Capitalism? Plain and simple? Land of the free, home of the brave. Buy low, mark up,sell, move on. The stories were just that,stories. Pure fiction and conjecture to make a point. Good way to stir up the Lads !

 

Without having read any of the 140+ replies to this.... Gotta be one of my favorite editorials... since "Janet"...

 

If he's not using deceit to maximize profits, it is. If he's lying and spinning, it's a whole different ballgame.

 

I will admit, I haven't read most of the replies,... just some here and there. The fact is these people do still exist, and they use places like the HAMB classifieds and The Ford Barn (as well as CL and a number of other boards) to buy and sell,... posing as just members and car guys,... not the commercial classic car dealers that the actually are.

Check out the classifieds,... and the members with a rotating inventory of cars for sale. I had one tell me he was interested in a car I had for his son, because he always wanted one.,... But looking over his former posts,.. He had two of the exact year and model,.. one that was currently up for sale,... and another one that was sold the month earlier. I guess his son must change his mind an awful lot.

 

exactly.

the bottom line is there are people that produce in society by improving a product or offering something that is beneficial(i.e.:value).

Then there are the parasites in society who offer nothing.they use subterfuge and trickery to manipulate for monetary relief,at the expense of the uneducated.

what cracks me up is some on here are saying that it's the uneducated one's fault for ALLOWING themself to get ripped off.

incredible.

 

Ryan,
I agree with a lot of what you say in your rant and found it very well written. However, scumbag dealers are generally easy to spot and if a person falls prey to them then they must share in the blame if for no other reason pure laziness. That being said, another contributor to the outlandish cost of our hobby is the overpriced, over-hyped, gold chainer approved, rod and custom car builders. 75-200 dollars an hour? Not naming names but I have seen and heard of you hangin' with and even praising these kind of folks yourself. There are just as many crooks in that kind of business as there are in the used car business and they don't have to put up with the negative stigmas. You'll probably reply with a theory that these fellas possess some extraordinary, mystical, talents and are therefore entitled to gouge their customers and drive up the prices on the rest of us. Maybe in some cases your right, but if we're going to speak in generalities and lump most people of a certain occupation together than "Elitist Pro-Builder Guy" ranks higher on the asshole list than any used car salesmen. By the way, who didn't know car salesmen were full of shit? Finally, just like there are honest, talented, and genuine car builders that deserve a premium (Gary Howard), there also honest, talented, genuine car salesman that deserve a premium (Wayne Carrini Type). The amount of the premium can only be decided by the lazy SOB that wasn't willing to do the work.

 

don't have much used for those lots. I have bought my fair share of cars and sometimes walking away will get you the better deal and sometimes its better to jump on them.
Secret is to be educated on it. I couldn't flip boats , houses fishing gear etc. I sold a builder wagon last wk end I am happy the new owner is happy we are now friends. I try to be up front on what I have or what it needs. flipping helps me get parts, make a little to fund the other projects

 

I've read through most of the stuff on here and I just have to know that I, the only one I am actually in control of, am doing the right thing. I feel that if more people went about it this way we'd be in better shape but that is only in the control those who participate.
I recently let some parts go for less than i could / should have but was able to earn enough to get the next couple parts I needed. Good for me, good for them. It works, try it!
Not trying to get consumed by greed and make money ... just build, drive and enjoy cars that I love for me and my family.
Same way my partner go about the side work that we do .. good honest work for fair price. Just seems like the right thing to do. After all that's what I'm teaching my kids so shouldn't I model it?

 

good story ryan I read it with alot of interest I coown a real shop and I have fixed alot of mess that wasnt revealed in the dealings. Now most car salesmen have a new gimmic the consignment shop these shops hire people that know very little about classic cars and dont want them to know then when they sell something that is a piece of junk they always come back with thats what the owner told me I didnt know that or the good line is all old cars have problems. It is a real shame that the low lifes take advantage of people that dont know . I myself do pre purchase inspections for people that dont know what to look for and alot of these sellers dont like to see me coming because I will find what they are hiding. I dont tell people to buy the cars or not to buy I just tell it like it is. I did have a friend that all he did was sell classics and trade he sold a 55 chevy with cardboard inner rockers they just sprayed them with thick undercoat I asked why he said if they dont ask dont tell not my friend anymore I cant deal with that. Thanks for saying what you did RED

 

A dealer (or anyone in business for that matter) just needs to operate with a little honour and integrity. Unfortunately, some operate without either and even take pleasure in the kind of outcome in Ryan's hypothetical tale.

 

He can't buy it for what he would sell it for and make a living. It's no different than a pawn shop.

They aren't going to offer you what it's worth but they are standing there with cash in hand.

Unfortunately in many cases the "low ball" offer is actually far closer to what the car is worth than the asking price.

There are completely honest sellers, white lie sellers and downright dishonest sellers. This goes for dealers or the guy on the street. It's always been this way.

"Let the cat out of the bag" is a very old term.

 

If the classic car dealer were to make more money next week selling washing machines they would.