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Technical FE Ford 390: pulled dist. oil pump shaft dropped into engine!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by ThisOneGoesTo11, Mar 15, 2020.

  1. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 4,826

    Budget36
    Member

    Gotta be a fundamental reason we don't want to leave a shaft in the pan?]

    I dunno, I'd get it out.
     
  2. Aaron65
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 285

    Aaron65
    Member
    from Michigan

    It doesn't look like the shaft you pulled out has the collar on it... I wonder if new ones don't. If not, that's unfortunate, because it certainly would have saved you (and a lot of others) a headache.
     
  3. MAD MIKE
    Joined: Aug 1, 2009
    Posts: 570

    MAD MIKE
    Member
    from 94577

    Did the same thing, 302 double sump, some how got lucky and got it out. But couldn't figure out how to get the new shaft in without dropping it into the pan again.
    Asked the old fella at the machine shop that was on High St in Oakland.
    "Turn it over, if your crank doesn't hit it you're fine."
    'But I got it out.'
    "Oh, well... glue it to the distributor and stab it in!"
    Never thought of loctite at the time, so I just wrapped the top of the shaft in a couple turns of electrical tape and jammed it into the distributor.
    It was a crusty/dusty/oily engine running 7/8 cylinders.
    Worked like a charm.
     
  4. OLDSMAN
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 2,423

    OLDSMAN
    BANNED

    All new shafts come with the collar installed in the correct position.
     
    egads likes this.
  5. No defense for Phord, this is a big design flaw. GM engines, my '53 hemi, etc., make this joint very strong and very easy to service. My only experience w/ this was building the 390 for my Mysterion clone. Never dropped it in the pan but can't number the hours I spent trying to stab the distributor with that rod sitting in the hole off center. Don't recall my aftermarket rod having a retainer clip or groove for one.
     
    Gasser 57 likes this.
  6. Aaron65
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 285

    Aaron65
    Member
    from Michigan

    I agree here. Dropping the shaft into the pan is never a concern with my four GM cars and my one Chrysler.
     
    Truckdoctor Andy likes this.
  7. Stick a magnet in first and be sure its not hiding. If you don't get it then pull the pan. You probably need a new pan gasket anyway.

    That is not what you want to hear. Sorry man
     
  8. RmK57
    Joined: Dec 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,616

    RmK57
    Member

    Be thankful you heard it drop into the pan. As far as a design flaws go, putting the distributor in the back of the engine is a bigger design flaw.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  9. MARKDTN
    Joined: Feb 16, 2016
    Posts: 81

    MARKDTN

    Curious why you say that is a design flaw? If you go to demolition derbies the front distributors get killed first a lot in the ones I've seen. If you can survive in a demo derby, you can run fine in the street.

    As far as the OP. Hopefully you put the ring on it when you put it back or it will come out again next time the distributor is pulled.
     
  10. I used loctite. The Shaft and Distributor are now One. Lol.
     
  11. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,440

    56sedandelivery
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I was going to say just go after it by removing the pan and all; at least it gets done right, once, and you know it's good. I do like the Wolf's little trick!!! Us Chevrolet guys have a similar deal with the oil pump drive on SBC's and BBC's; probably the W-motors also, but I've never had/worked on one of those (darn it!). Only ours is the "connection" that's held together with a nylon collar that indexes the oil pump shaft, that gets brittle with age/heat/oil/acids/everything, and then can break apart; when that happens, all H*LL can break loose. I've had the oil pump shaft itself break after the collar gives up. But, there's a replacement drive with a metal collar pinned to the shaft; what Chevrolet should have done in the first place. I recently bough a little "tool" after it was talked about on over on ChevyTalk.Org; it's called a Lizard Cam, and it's only like $26.00 on that auction site we all know and love. It's a "flexible, micro-inspection camera. Hand held screen that is surprisingly clear, l-o-n-g flexible cable, and three adapters; one's a magnet end, one a mirror, the last one's a hook. It might have helped in your case, but could surely help in a thousand other ways. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
    alanp561 likes this.
  12. The HF camera i used kept getting oil on the tip, then the picture was hazy, the inside of the oil pan had a lot of glare or it was too dark. wasn't as useful as I thought. In the end didn't matter how clearly i could see it the shaft was down there and the real trick was how to get it out. So it boiled down to what I had to do to be able to get my big fat hand in there. I probably wasted an equal amount of time trying to avoid pulling the pan versus just doing it.
     
  13. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 4,586

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    Back when I was still young and dumb and broke, first SBC I ever built, the plastic/nylon collar was broke, it crumbled when I took out the distributor. I found part of it in the pan, part still on the shaft. I looked around for a suitable replacement, found a piece of some kind of hose, rubber, vinyl, don't remember now, and cut me a piece and forced it on the shaft. Had to press pretty hard on the distributor to get it to seat all the way, but didn't have any problem with the shaft coming off the pump!
     
  14. jaracer
    Joined: Oct 4, 2008
    Posts: 603

    jaracer
    Member

    If I was going to loctite it, I'd do it in the oil pump end. It is possible to get the shaft in and miss the oil pump. The distributor will go in and the shaft will walk around the pump gear; ask me how I know.
     
    Truckdoctor Andy likes this.
  15. I used that same trick, and wrapped the side of the magnet with electrical tape. It is over twenty years ago, but I still remember that I spent some time fishing to get the end of the shaft so that I could lift it out.
    Bob
     
  16. finn
    Joined: Jan 25, 2006
    Posts: 718

    finn
    Member

    Did you find the retaining clip? I would suggest that it’s less half assed to instal a new retaining clip along with a new shaft since you have it apart than screwing with Loctite.

    The shaft hex wears and tends to round the corners on high mileage engines. High viscosity oil and low temperature cold starts can fail the shaft at the hex.
     
  17. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 7,651

    jimmy six
    Member

  18. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 4,826

    Budget36
    Member


    Would that work as a bore scope too?
     
  19. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 4,826

    Budget36
    Member

    I'm trying to picture this in my mind, and still not finding/seeing a plastic/nylon thing on a SBC you're referring to.

    Not busting on you, I just don't know where/what you were doing.
     
  20. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 10,389

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    Personally I wouldn't loctite this shaft on either end unless it was a true alignment from the the oil pump to the distributor.
     
  21. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,440

    56sedandelivery
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It's what I bought it for! Has an image on the box of a ladies ring down in a sink drain. I actually stuck it in my ear to see what I could see. There's LED lights on the end also. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
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  22. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,440

    56sedandelivery
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The nylon collar is used to "connect" the oil pump shaft to the drive shaft, that connects with the distributor gear. In a gasket overhaul kit for SBC/BBC, a new nylon collar is provided. Like I say, aftermarket drive shafts have a pinned on metal collar. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  23. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 4,586

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    Like Butch said, it's on the bottom of the pump drive shaft. It keeps the shaft from walking out. Most are black from heat and oil, so maybe you didn't notice it being a seperate piece if it wasn't broken.
     
    Budget36 likes this.
  24. DFWSteveFoster
    Joined: Oct 23, 2006
    Posts: 10

    DFWSteveFoster
    Member
    from DFW, Texas

    I’ve been through this recently. I found an aftermarket shaft with a larger diameter will line itself up to drop the oil pump. When you pull the distributor it will drop back down without falling into the oil pan.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  25. DFWSteveFoster
    Joined: Oct 23, 2006
    Posts: 10

    DFWSteveFoster
    Member
    from DFW, Texas

  26. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 4,641

    Boneyard51
    Member

    No design flaw here at all! Ford provided a collar to keep it in place. It’s strong enough to turn the pump, it if can’t turn the pump and gets twisted, you have other problems! There is nothing to putting the distributor in an FE, if you know how to do it! If you spent “ hours trying to stab it”, you obviously know don’t how!








    Bones
     
  27. saltracer219
    Joined: Sep 23, 2006
    Posts: 773

    saltracer219
    Member

    Yup, the only design flaw was the idiot that either took the retainer off of the drive shaft or installed the drive shaft upside down!
     
    sunbeam, egads and Boneyard51 like this.
  28. 51504bat
    Joined: May 22, 2010
    Posts: 2,339

    51504bat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    When I dropped the shaft on my 289 way back in HS it had the retainer on it when I retrieved the shaft after dropping the pan. I had never had the engine apart but don't know the history of the car before I bought it.
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  29. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 4,641

    Boneyard51
    Member

    There’s your clue! Don’t know the history! I have torn down several Ford engines in my career with the oil pump drive shaft in up side down. But, everyone of them had been into before. I have never seen an original with the shaft upside down.






    Bones
     
    alanp561, Truckdoctor Andy and egads like this.
  30. Exopy a strong magnet to bottom of pan to hold shaft fast so it won't roll around then install a new shaft . Better than pulling pan !
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.

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