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Fast with a flatty on a budget?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Vermonster, Mar 19, 2009.

  1. Vermonster
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 60

    Vermonster
    Member

    I was reading a great thread a moment ago on how to plan your next move with an SBC...

    Having just bought a '50 Ford F1, with a motor that turns over by hand, getting it running is priority number one.

    Getting it running well is number 2....

    If you had a more limited income, where would you begin? carb? exhaust? heads? 3 deuce intake manifold? THe list goes on and on...

    Having not even taken the motor apart yet, I may be getting ahead of myself, but theoretically, is it the same mental formula for every motor? or with my flathead V8, is it a whole 'nother ball o' wax?

    Tim
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2009
  2. jetmek
    Joined: Jan 12, 2006
    Posts: 1,847

    jetmek
    Member

    if your strapped for $ dont waste it on hop up stuff for a stock engine in highly questionable condition. get it running(if it will) see how it is. if it doesnt knock and smoke just run it for the summer and enjoy it as is...
     
  3. Vermonster
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 60

    Vermonster
    Member

    I am thinking valve guides are the first step... somsone tried to run this thing on unleaded, and the valves "stuck" from what I can tell ?
     
  4. BigChief
    Joined: Jan 14, 2003
    Posts: 2,084

    BigChief
    Member

    The words 'budget', 'fast' and 'flathead' are an oxymoron when used together in any sentence. On a cost per HP scale the flatty is a looser on a cost per coolness factor the flatty is priceless. Its always worth a set of gaskets and a trip to the machine shop for a thorough check up for cracks and excess wear....however, if your tight on money there's a good chance you'll bust the budget before the flatty is done correctly. ...and from the sounds of 'stuck valve', etc I'd suspect it'll need more than a quick freshen up.

    -Bigchief.
     

  5. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    I wouldn't say that, BigChief. I'd say - fast, flathead, budget - you can have any two of the three... ;) :D
     
  6. flatjack
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 975

    flatjack
    Member

    I've been running my engine for over 15 years on unleaded and haven't had a valve stick yet. They're probably stuck from sitting around.
     
  7. pasadenahotrod
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 11,775

    pasadenahotrod
    Member
    from Texas

    Amoco sold nothing but Unleaded Gas starting way before flathead Ford V8s and all engines used it wuth no ill effects.
    Stuck valves are common in flathead engines that have sitting a while. I was lucky, my 59A fresh rebuild was sitting in a chassis for years outside in Houston wrapped in a tarp with a tin can over the carburetor and when I started it it had one sticking valve which popped free with just a little encouragement and some Marvel Mystery Oil. The question is will it run again after sitting in my garage for another 8 years? We shall see.
     
  8. Henry Floored
    Joined: Sep 18, 2004
    Posts: 1,370

    Henry Floored
    Member


    My opinion (after you get running properly). Do the nearly free stuff first. Pull the heads then valves assemblies and port that sucker right there in the frame. Concentrate on four areas. 1) cleanup the valve bowls 2) reshape the intake port short side radius to as smooth and gradual as possible 3) Open the exhaust port entrances to a resonable degree 4) smooth and radius the end exhaust port exits. Do an in frame valve job if you can find the tools (see an oldtimer for this) 30 degrees intake 45 degrees exhaust.

    Find a set of EAB cyl heads they're common and cheap! They'll up compression (provided the rings and valves ar OK), remember to screw the spark plugs in while you have them off and check them to be shure they're fully into the combustion chamber. If not relieve that area to expose the end of the plug just enough.

    Put a PCV valve in that engine. It's easy on the late Flatheads. Remove the road draft tube and chuck it or hang it on the wall. Get a 6A631 PCV grommet and valve from an EFI 5.0 Ford. It fits pretty good just use a little RTV to make shure it stays in. Pick up vacumn from either the intake or a spacer under the carb.

    Save your money for the best street ignition system you can afford. Get a set of headers and duals (preferably "W's" if they'll fit your chassis)

    Don't worry about the carb at first but if you must a Rochester 2GC will adapt and help power.
     
  9. Vermonster
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 60

    Vermonster
    Member

    Thanks Henry, That's exactly the kind of ideas I was looking for...

    so no problems w/ unleaded, eh? That's good to hear also...
     
  10. NoSurf
    Joined: Jul 26, 2002
    Posts: 4,461

    NoSurf
    Member

  11. DocWatson
    Joined: Mar 24, 2006
    Posts: 10,273

    DocWatson
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yeah I was going to say, fast or fast for a flattie!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
     
  12. chappys4life
    Joined: Sep 10, 2008
    Posts: 460

    chappys4life
    Member
    from Austin, TX

    Just get it running. Who needs tons of power, it all makes up for it when you pop the hood and its not a sbc. Do get a different rear end though you so you can cruise without screaming rpms.
     
  13. Only drive downhill.

    Seriously, I can't add much except even a bone stock flathead sounds cool enough you don't have to go fast with it. You could fit up a T5 behind it so you can cruise at highway speeds and not run the motor too hard, just plan to take your time getting there.
     
  14. Ole don
    Joined: Dec 16, 2005
    Posts: 2,915

    Ole don
    Member

    Did you want advice from an old guy who has tried what you want to do? Warm it up, and slowly pour about a quart of water down the carb at about 2000 RPMs. This to clean out about a ton of carbon. Put in fresh plugs, file and set the points, change oil and add a quart of marvel oil, and go for a hundred mile ride, and come home. The stuck valve should be fixed. With the engine warm, run a compression check. If all are close, anythng above 70, run it. I have never seen anyone remove both heads without breaking off a head bolt. When that happens, you are in more trouble than you thought possible. Have fun!
     
  15. 8flat
    Joined: Apr 2, 2006
    Posts: 1,392

    8flat
    Member

    HAHAHAHA......I was going to say that exact same thing, (with full credit to Earl Schribe of course :D) From experience, I can't think of an engine that has a higher cost/HP ratio.

    But damn.....they are cool.

    OK: back on subject, like what was posted above, I'd stick to the things that don't cost much, like porting and valve relief, building your own headers, etc. Maybe find a used dual carb intake and some used carbs to rebuild. Upgrade the ignition.
     
  16. Vermonster
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 60

    Vermonster
    Member

    If he is in Chester, Vt, then I'm about 35 minutes from him...

    Care to expand?
     
  17. FiddyFour
    Joined: Dec 31, 2004
    Posts: 9,024

    FiddyFour
    Member


    perhaps go bend his ear?
     
  18. That's partly true. Only the AMOCO-GAS which was the premium grade, later known as Super-premium was the lead free, using aromatics rather than lead to raise octane. The Amoco regular was leaded.
    And the lead issue really has more to do with valve seat life, not so much guides.
     
  19. panic
    Joined: Jan 3, 2004
    Posts: 1,450

    panic

    There are a lot cheaper and faster ways of avoiding an SBC.
    A stock slant 6 225 is about a match for a pretty hot 239, except for being about $5,000 cheaper and 100 lbs. lighter.
     
  20. Vermonster
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 60

    Vermonster
    Member

    haha, okay, now that I just figured out who Ron Holleran is...

    [​IMG]

    Sorry to be such a dope..
     
  21. TexasHardcore
    Joined: May 30, 2003
    Posts: 5,030

    TexasHardcore
    Member
    from Austin-ish

    I love how flatheads look and perform. They are just so right for what they are. But if I came across a Flatty, and wanted more power. I'd sell the Flathead and put that money into something else that already has more power. My budget is ALWAYS tight, and a flathead probably won't ever be in my budget. Y-Blocks & early small block Fords for me.
     
  22. Henry Floored
    Joined: Sep 18, 2004
    Posts: 1,370

    Henry Floored
    Member

    If your engine is truely a 1950 it should have hard seats from the factory. If it does not don't sweat it. Flathead Fords have relatively light valvespring pressure and tend not to pound the seats too bad.
     
  23. flatjack
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 975

    flatjack
    Member

    Not so. I know several guys who don't have hardened seats in the exhaust and have had problems. If your going to drive it a lot, get hard seats.
     
  24. Vermonster
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 60

    Vermonster
    Member

    Water more recommended than Seafoam, or Marvel?

    Can you tell visually the hard seat from the soft? (<--insert ass joke here)
     
  25. jetmek
    Joined: Jan 12, 2006
    Posts: 1,847

    jetmek
    Member

    clean it up good and you can usually see the parting line when seats are instaLLED "SOFT" SEATS ARE the block casting
     
  26. You've received lots of good advice here. I'd do all the things that take your time/labor first - before you head to the machine shop. If you're new to flatheads, the whole experience will be great for you - then you'll be prepared to go further down the road.

    1) Pull the engine, pull the heads, pan, etc..
    2) If it was mine, I'd pull the rest of it apart (making sure you number everything like rods/pistons, bearings, valves, guides, etc).
    3) Check everything out and see where there are issues -- as there are damn near ALWAYS issues! The area where it will most likely need work is the valves. If it has been sitting, then the valves/seats that were open are probably rusted . . . so inspect everything closely.
    4) Clean ALL the block areas between the valves and bores - wipe down with lacquer thinner and check for cracks.
    5) Check the block oil pan rails (where the pan bolts up) for cracks as well - lots of time people let them freeze and crack when they parked them.
    6) Now that you've spent a lot of time on it, you'll have a much better idea as to what condition it is really in - then you can decide how much further you MUST go, versus might want to go.
    7) My guess is that at the very least it will probably need a valve job. If it doesn't have hard seats in all the valves, then you might want to invest in that area first -- which is a trip to the machine shop.
    8) The bores may be alright - you might just get away with having them honed and throw a new set of rings in it.
    9) If the bearings or journals are worn, then you'll have to deal with it -- don't throw it back together and wonder why it is knocking like crap a few miles down the road . . . deal with it on the front end.
    10) Once you know how much it absolutely needs (time and money), then you can think about the fun "hot rod" stuff.
    11) If you now have the short block in good shape - then you can start down the hotrod path. By far the best money spent is for a good 3/4 cam, good ignition, good intake/carbs and headers. As others have said - you can go on the cheap with EAB heads, maybe a Pertronics ignition, dual carbs, etc.. Depends how many friends you have, how much you can scrounge/trade for parts, etc . . . as well as how much of a hurry you are in. Time is an enemy of cost - if you want to get things done fast, then you'll pay more for everything.
     
  27. Once you know how much it absolutely needs (time and money), then you can think about the fun "hot rod" stuff.

    Bes advice of the lot .....well said B&S !!

    Rat
     
  28. HEATHEN
    Joined: Nov 22, 2005
    Posts: 8,560

    HEATHEN
    Member
    from SIDNEY, NY

    Just think of building a flathead (or any engine, for that matter) like a house---if the foundation's no good, there's no point in redecorating the living room and adding a deck.
     
  29. HD74
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 303

    HD74
    Member

    Good thread and lots of good advice.
     
  30. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    OK - my smart-ass comment earlier aside, here's what I'd do on a very limited budget.

    Super Limited:
    Get it running. If it turns over, you can usually make it run. Clean the carb, check the points, clean the plugs, make sure it's getting gas (may have to rebuild the pump - cheap and easy if required), and fire it up. If it's been sitting for a long time, it'll likely smoke like a big dog - this may go away on its own depending on a lot of variables. I'd rev it while pouring ATF or MMO down the throat of the carb slowly (your neighbors will thank you for getting rid of the mosquitos). Drive it a bit and see how it goes.

    Limited Budget:
    Pull the heads. Clean all the carbon off the block and check for cracks - focus around the exhaust seats toward the cylinders. Turn the engine over slowly by hand and make sure each valve moves properly and seats. Replace the heads with EAB heads, if you can, mill them so you end up with about .050" clearance over the pistons (don't forget to check w/gaskets).

    Find a late 4-bolt Merc intake and a Rochester 2GC carb. You will likely have to open up the intake a little bit to accept the butterflies of the 2GC.

    Dual exhaust using stock manifolds and cheap glasspacks (or no mufflers - it's a flathead, it's not that loud if you run full tailpipes out the back).

    eBay a Mallory distributor or have GMC Bubba send you one of his converted SBC distributors and toss the stock 8BA-style distributor in the junk bin.


    I wouldn't go much beyond that unless I was planning to tear down and rebuild. You can do what B&S says too, but check for cracks before investing too much time/money. I'd be tempted to run it as-is for a while so I had a better idea of what I've got...
     

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