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Technical ***Fall is in the air: October 2014 Banger Meet***

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Jiminy, Oct 3, 2014.

  1. RussTee
    Joined: Mar 25, 2008
    Posts: 1,221

    RussTee
    Member

    Dan I have a piston top just like that on my desk together with a few axel ends from before I learnt to lap the hub to the axel taper
     
  2. How many miles before it broke?

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  3. RussTee
    Joined: Mar 25, 2008
    Posts: 1,221

    RussTee
    Member

    In my case quite a few just pulled away from the lights and bang its all over mother!
     
  4. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,205

    Crazydaddyo
    Member


    The engine was used when I got it. It came out of a running '33 commercial truck. No idea how many miles it had on it when I got it. Though it had about .010" belly worn into the cylinder walls when I put the new pistons in.

    After I put the High Compression head on it, it only ran for about 1500 miles before the piston broke.
    .
     
    Hitchhiker likes this.
  5. After a week of searching, I finally found you guys! I'm still not able to navigate the new site..
    My car and engine are spread the length an width of this little town. I should be able to marshal all the parts back together to go to "Test and Tune" at Buttonwillow Raceway the middle of January.
     
  6. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,205

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    OD,
    What was wrong with your engine. Last I heard you lost oil pressure?

    .
     
  7. BCCHOPIT
    Joined: Aug 10, 2008
    Posts: 2,597

    BCCHOPIT
    Member

    Keep the pics coming Rich....


    WACCUSTOMS.COM
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  8. I think it all started when a year ago, at California Speedway (now AAA Speedway), # 8 rocker arm (exhaust) broke. The valve hit the piston, bent and jammed in the guide. There was no damage to the piston, so we just replaced the valve, cleaned up the head and put it back on the block. Everything ran fine for three events, including the 1st annual Brickyard Vintage Races and Indianapolis.
    Back at California Speedway the end of June, humming along a 4500-5000 rpm, the oil gauge went into freefall and I shut it off. As you may remember, I thought it something simple. But when we got into it each end cam bearing had come loose of the block. The internals of this engine are entirely different than your average Ford banger. The two end cam bearings are over an inch wide. The other three (yes it's got got five) bearings are half the width of the end bearings. Despite my overseeing the assembly of the engine, someone (there were several guys working on it) put two of the narrow bearings in the front hole.
    I think the vibration caused by the broken rocker caused the crankcase side of the two part front cam bearing to move or perhaps come all the way out. This then caused the cam to move laterally. It destroyed the front adjuster on the cam cover. Finally, I think the rear bearing started to come out. And, the engine lost oil pressure. I found the half front bearing, tied up like a ribbon, hung up in the crankcase baffles.
    I decided that the whole engine be rebuilt. Wonder of wonders, no metal went through. No notable wear on the other bearings (we're replacing them anyway). Bores and pistons are good. We polished the crank journals. I sent the cam up to Dema Elgin to be cleaned up. He sent it back, saying he straightened it! He "Parkerized it". He also told me that it appeared that there had been valve float. He sent me the nomenclature of the cam (he had designed and ground it about eight years ago). With that info, I calculated the Open Valve Load and Closed Valve Load needed. I found that I had been using valve springs that were about 50 lbs. less that are needed. We're replacing them.
    Too much information?
     
  9. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,205

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    No, not enough. But probably more then you want to give up. I would rather see it though. ;)

    Thanks for sharing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2014
  10. Phred
    Joined: Jul 21, 2008
    Posts: 18

    Phred
    Member
    from IL

    I never thought about lapping the axle taper to the hub.
    Do you just remove the axle key and spin the drum/hub on the axle with lapping compound?
    Just enough to remove any "high spots"?

    If you lap too much, the drum can rub on the backing plate, requiring the use of a tapered axle shim. Wouldn't the shim defeat the purpose of the lapping?

    Thanks in advance for any thoughts
     
  11. I lap my rear hubs to the axle. I don't worry about lapping too much as I only use good axles and hubs. If the surface is rough from running loose or shearing a key I don't use them. I lap for fit not repair. I lap by rotating the hub each way as close to an equal amount then rotate 90 degrees and rotate hub both ways again. I just realized some thing, if you need instructions on lapping you might be on the wrong page or maybe it is just the terminology you use (spinning). Or maybe I've gotten too old. By the way, while I'm at it here is a tip. I don't use Dykem when doing something like lapping I use a gunsmith's cold blue which just stains the surface with no build up. I apply it with oil free 000 steel wool with a scrubbing motion. I also tighten the rear axle nuts to 200 lbs. also try not to use old axle nuts
     
  12. 20140419_145918 (1).jpg
    This is the last photo I have...
     
  13. I think you recognize the late, great Jay Steel..

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. RussTee
    Joined: Mar 25, 2008
    Posts: 1,221

    RussTee
    Member

    Phred it is important that the hub fits perfectly to the axel first start with a very good axel and hub you usually go through several before you find this then carefully lap them in as you discribe. any movement causes freating and the axel can break at the spline and the wheel can fall off you can buy shims to pack the drum away from the backing plate but I never use them I prefer to use a better axel and hub this is why you fit brake drum retainers. loseing a wheel is a very scary experience often leading to messy underpants and the loss of wives and girlfriends if they are passengers not to mention the invention of almost a new langage of colourfull words which most people seem to understand.
     
  15. RussTee
    Joined: Mar 25, 2008
    Posts: 1,221

    RussTee
    Member

    Old Dawg loverly car great to see it being used
     
  16. These are some of the best shots of the car, so far. The were taken at the 2013 Monterey Reunion.

    Enjoy!


    32-Miller-Scofield-Ford-DV-13-MH_05.jpg
    32-Miller-Scofield-Ford-DV-13-MH_07.jpg 32-Miller-Scofield-Ford-DV-13-MH_014.jpg
     
  17. colinsmithson
    Joined: Jan 27, 2013
    Posts: 383

    colinsmithson
    Member

    Old Dawg Great photos thanks
    Hope you get it running soon
    Colin
     
  18. Phred
    Joined: Jul 21, 2008
    Posts: 18

    Phred
    Member
    from IL

    Bill and Russ,
    thanks for the advice. I have thought of adding some sort of drum retainer, but never seen any or looked for them yet.. Where can I see some or find them for my stock Model A axles/drums?
     
  19. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,730

    Binger
    Member
    from wyoming

    I have used the search function and had no luck So I am looking for opinions on shortening a Model A drive shaft. Is it best to cut a section out and have it welded and balanced or cut it and machine new splines on the end and balance?
     
  20. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    I am going to have to go for the shorten and cut new splines
     
  21. ebtm3
    Joined: May 23, 2007
    Posts: 837

    ebtm3
    Member

     
  22. 3wLarry
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 12,804

    3wLarry
    Member Emeritus
    from Owasso, Ok

    Are original 153 Chevy II 4 bangers ever discussed here? Not Marine stuff or Iron Duke stuff. I've just acquired a 1962 153 and have read every thread I can find on them on the hamb...just curious.
     
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  23. I have had new splines cut and also have set the tapered end in the lathe and picked up the taper with the compound with a .0001 indicator got it dead nuts and recut the taper. I check the taper
    with cold blue and a good pinion. Recut the key in the Bridgeport. One shop I have dealt with said they cut and indicated the ends in and drilled and pressed in 3/8" Dia. dowel pins to hold alignment then welded the shaft. They supplied these shortened drive shafts in a kit to install the F100 or F150 transmissions in A's. Strong enough for the street. I don't think cutting new splines would affect balance much unless the machining is sloppy but most Gear cutting shops have good shop practice's. Welding might but if it is straight and a good clean weld probably not. But, hey, It's yours.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2014
  24. The drum retainers or clips I have seen bolt to the hydraulic wheel cylinders. The older type called a "safety hub" used a ring welded to the hub inside the drum and the retainer bolted to the backing plate mounting bolts. You slid the retainer over the hub then welded the ring to the hub.
     
  25. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,730

    Binger
    Member
    from wyoming



    Thank you for the advise. I had heard about pressing in the dowell pins and welding too. When you cut the new splines is the work on the taper end just to true it up and check for fit of the pinion then clean up the key way? Sorry about the obvious questions but I want to make sure I am educated about it when I go and talk to the machine shop.
     
  26. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,205

    Crazydaddyo
    Member


    I think shortening and re cutting the taper end is easiest. If you can find some one in your area that makes or works on boat prop shafts, they can re cut the taper for you.
     
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  27. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,730

    Binger
    Member
    from wyoming

    Thanks for information. Might be a bit hard to find a boat guy in land locked Wyoming. HAHA! I will go and talk to the machine shop and see what they are capable of doing. If not surely there will be a machine shop in Denver only a short 100 mile trip that I can use. Anybody in the rocky mountain area have any suggestions of who might be able to do the work?
     
  28. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,730

    Binger
    Member
    from wyoming

    Another question. What does any body think of the T-5 clutch disk for model A that is sold by Auto Restorations in Muncie Indiana? They seem to be the only option for running a t-5 with a stock bell housing. If I know the measurements perhaps I could modify the Disk from speedway. What has worked for everyone else?
     
  29. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,766

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    Here's the axle retaining clips from Speedway ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1413151519.090805.jpg


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  30. Well, any good machine shop should be able to cut the taper if they take time to set it up properly. Look for gear hobbing shops for some one cut the spline. Call Bert's in Denver for help locating some one to do this.
     

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