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Technical Exporting nonTitled Antique: US Customs required paperwork

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by MrCreosote, Aug 4, 2016.

  1. MrCreosote
    Joined: Jul 23, 2009
    Posts: 262

    MrCreosote
    Member
    from USA

    US Customs web site says for a car that was never titled by the state (a 1926 Chrysler from Georgia in his case), you need

    1) Bill of Sale, and
    2) Letter from Georgia stating that new cars older than 1963 were never titled.

    However, other people are saying I need a title.

    I know it is easier with a title so I'm thinking a) people are really meaning "it's better if you have a title" than you actually "need" a title, or b) they are trying to sell me their title service.

    Actually, I should contact the Agent which will actually do the exporting - they may know exactly what is required.

    But I do need some kind of guidance at this time.

    Thanks
    Tom
     
  2. oldolds
    Joined: Oct 18, 2010
    Posts: 3,153

    oldolds
    Member

    I understand that some countries it is about impossible to get a car into without a title. A friend tried to get a car into Sweden a few years ago and they had just started to clean up their system. They had found 4 Model A's there with the same number (what he was importing) and 50 Harley's with the same number. That summer they were being extra tough on what came in that country. His car was ok, but that was why everything had to be right.
     
  3. Where is it going? I would think what the country it is going to needs to accept the vehicle is going to be a more important issue.
     
  4. Ask the agent what they need. The hassle likely won't be paperwork to export it, the hassle will be the paperwork the new country needs.

    Here's the reply I typed before re-reading your post and seeing you're using an agent. Oops.

    Are you taking the car into Canada? Or using a service to ship it somewhere?

    If you're talking it into Canada on a trailer, US customs will never see it. You'll get stopped entering Canada, not leaving the USA. The Canadians will have documentation they want to see but they won't give a rip about what the USA says you have to do to export it. They don't care.

    Which isn't to say just forget about it, point is worry more about what is needed to bring it into the new country. If the state the car is from doesn't issue titles then there's no need for a title to export it.
     

  5. CraigR
    Joined: Jun 20, 2008
    Posts: 375

    CraigR
    Member
    from California

    Depends where you're going & why. Different ports have different interpretations of the rules. Have shipped many out of Long Beach that way, but it is down to the discretion of the US Customs officer in question. One week it's all good, next week needs a title. If you're going out of New York, it will need a title.
    And as others have pointed out, different countries have different rules, sometimes having a U.S. title can make registration in the new country much easier.
     
  6. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 18,120

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  7. Short answer from a former US Customs Officer : For a car leaving the country - on our end, we are only concerned with having proof that the car is not stolen. That means some type of ownership paperwork, i.e. title, bill of sale, registration, erc. Your agent should be able to tell you what makes your local Customs office happy. We also want to know that it isn't loaded with guns, drugs or explosives....but that's a different discussion.

    Once the car arrives on a distant shore - the local Customs Agency gets to determine what paperwork is required for importing a car into their country. We have our own complex set of rules to import cars into this country, they have theirs. Find out what is required on the other end BEFORE you ship the car without proper paperwork. Jumping through hoops beforehand is a hassle. Trying to do it after the fact is a nightmare! Usually, the person importing the car into the country is responsible for making sure the paperwork is done right, but they may need certain forms or documents filled out by you. Again, your shipping agent should be able to help you, IF he is experienced and has his stuff together. It never hurts to do a little internet / telephone sleuthing on your own.

    Hope this helps.
     
  8. MrCreosote
    Joined: Jul 23, 2009
    Posts: 262

    MrCreosote
    Member
    from USA

    thanks guys for all the help

    It is going to England - my friend in England said her side only needs a Bill of Sale.

    And yes, my understanding is the US CBP is interested in proving ownership. But what I find ridiculous is that although I can go to a local notary, where they look up Georgia, see that no titles were issued until 1963, see that the car is a 1926, and will accept a Bill of Sale and issue me a PA title, US CBP needs a letter from the State of Georgia stating no titles before 1963. Is US CBP a part of the US? Why don't they have access to the information notaries have for the Xfer of titles???

    Also, wondering if my UK friend could simply get her name on a PA title with her UK address???

    Here is what is on the CBP site. It is quite specific, but still, people say you have to have a title: (but after reading this, "type" maybe does not mean "antique" or "build before 1963.)


    "If you do not have the title because your state does not issue titles for your type of vehicle, the state should provide you with documentation supporting that the state has no titling requirements for such vehicles. This holds the state responsible for your inability to present the title to CBP. Present the documentation along with the bill of sale or MSO."

    https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/397/~/acceptable-proof-of-ownership-when-exporting-a-vehicle-without-a-title

     
  9. After I recently sold a VW double cab to a guy in England I can assure you that it is imperative that you HAVE a title,it's not a suggestion.

    Titles are required in England and the buyer could never register the car without one.HRP
     
  10. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 18,120

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Oh sir... it's only wafer thin.
     
  11. If you can easily obtain a clean PA title, by all means, do so. Make everyone's life easier.

    Because vehicle titles are issued by the individual states, federal agencies have no control over them. States have access because of title transfer necessities. The federal government has no "need" to access that information.
     
  12. MrCreosote
    Joined: Jul 23, 2009
    Posts: 262

    MrCreosote
    Member
    from USA

    Wow, my UK friend says England does not require a title for this 1926 antique coming from GA.

    In PA, all cars were issued titles. In GA, none until 1963 models. I'm guess if it came from PA, they would indeed require a title.

    Without a title, "possession is 9/10's of the law" since you can't prove ownership if you don't have a Bill of Sale - in fact, no one can prove ownership of a non-titled car without a BoS. A GA resident could just say it's their car and they bought it new. I believe there is a "title laundering" cottage industry in AL that will get you a title for any car you can provide some documentation for for about $1000.​

    I just love this... Chaos :D

    And then there is NY where if the car is so old, like maybe 1985, you don't have to transfer the title any more. State doesn't care. Bill of Sale is enough for subsequent changes of ownership.

    Even the Agent may not be familiar with "Pre-Title Antique" exports...
     
  13. mrquickwhip
    Joined: Oct 15, 2009
    Posts: 524

    mrquickwhip
    Member

    I'm in Scotland with the same rules as England, Wales and Northern Ireland and a title is an absolute must have. No exceptions unless it's parts.
     
  14. a fresh title a month or so old. Might draw some red flags.
     
  15. oldolds
    Joined: Oct 18, 2010
    Posts: 3,153

    oldolds
    Member

    If I remember right PA recently decided that a PA title must have a PA address on it.
    The title rules are changing so often in PA it is hard to keep up with the ones that you don't use every day. Your friend in England must appear in front of the notary to sign the paperwork. She also needs to have id with a PA address.
     
  16. MrCreosote
    Joined: Jul 23, 2009
    Posts: 262

    MrCreosote
    Member
    from USA

    Did anyone read the rules I quoted and linked from CBP?
     
  17. Get your money up front and then let the buyer/importer do his thing in his country. Don't even try to do his job for him. The buyer should make all arrangements for transportation from your facility/ home, obtaining a broker and advise you what to send with whoever is presenting the car at US Customs on his behalf. You are setting yourself up for a lot of grief if you try to take on his responsibilities. If the buyer can't get it done pass on him and get another buyer. I handled import export for a large multi-national for many years. Don't take any of the anecdotal he said/she said.
     
  18. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,132

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Getting it into the UK is easy, the paperwork, if present, is all about determining the amount of tax due, and that's it (ie is it a car, and what age, or is it just a pile of parts). The problem is the intention for it when it's here. If it's going to be road registered then the title eases the process otherwise it's tortuous if not potentially impossible, especially if modified. Lots of ways of skinning a cat but the trick is to have the end in mind and work backwards.

    My experience at the US end is, as mentioned previously, that it's all about vehicle theft prevention. A car requires a title or bill of sale to allow removal from the US. Interpretation of 'car' seems to vary. The shipper I've used said if it had an engine fitted it would need a title, otherwise it could be shipped as parts no problem, which is fine as long as it's to be used as parts at the other end and not attempt to be registered.

    Chris
     
  19. mgtstumpy
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 8,763

    mgtstumpy
    Member

    Title or bill of sale down here. Pretty simple
     
  20. 29moonshine
    Joined: Dec 30, 2006
    Posts: 1,319

    29moonshine
    Member

    you will not get a title for a car before 1965 in ga or ala. but you must have a bill of sale and a tag reg in the name of the seller to re reg the car in another state
     
  21. 19Fordy
    Joined: May 17, 2003
    Posts: 7,188

    19Fordy
    Member

    To make it simple and easy, why not just register the car in your name in the state where you live and then legally sell it to the overseas buyer so that he/she has a title? Add the cost of getting the title to the selling price of the car or have the buyer pay it separately to you.
     
  22. MrCreosote
    Joined: Jul 23, 2009
    Posts: 262

    MrCreosote
    Member
    from USA

    29moonshine - you hit the nail on the head - BoS and any old tag reg are preferred - local messenger service said BoS and VIN# tracing "may go through."

    Contacted a "Title Service" outfit and for $750, they can get a tile in Maryland in my name with just the BoS. They also said as of 1/1/2016, CBP wants titles for a car in pieces - sounds like CBP is like TSA or ATF - they do as they please since they evidently write the regulations too and answer to no one in that regard.

    Interestingly, GA responded to my email inquiry with a MV20 form which I think can get vehicle registration information returned. But if it doesn't come back in the BoS's name, that is a problem - but then that still doesn't prove anything since the car could have been registered in another state - you'd have to do an inquiry for all states to cover the bases (!)

    I guess that's why it's $750.
     
  23. MrCreosote
    Joined: Jul 23, 2009
    Posts: 262

    MrCreosote
    Member
    from USA

    TITLE QUESTION:

    I'm assuming if seller has title, seller fills out his portion and signs.
    UK Buyer fills out the buyer portion of title.
    Then title is notarized.

    I know it is illegal to have an open title with Seller info filled out and signed and no Buyer specified.

    But what is the practice when exporting?

    I looked into these Title Operations like in AL and they come up with a title from a leasing company filling out the Seller portion, with you, the Buyer specified in the Buyer portion. Then in the US, you simply process in your state just like you were buying a car from another state. I'm guessing this title is OK for CBP.
     
  24. I don't know about Alabama but I got a title for a 1929 Model A in Georgia. HRP
     
  25. MrCreosote
    Joined: Jul 23, 2009
    Posts: 262

    MrCreosote
    Member
    from USA

    Yeah, maybe some Georgia Quick Title place.

    I was also wondering if I could get a BoS with my name OR her name on it?

    Or if I could get a Vehicle Power of Attorney from her for this car. International VPoA??? I was given the name of a notary that knows all the angles in PA. Famous local racer car guy said it might be easier just getting a title for the car directly without BoS or anything. Not sure what he meant but he said see this notary.

    I guess I need to determine if there is a title, how is it filled out when taken to CBP.
     
  26. MrCreosote
    Joined: Jul 23, 2009
    Posts: 262

    MrCreosote
    Member
    from USA

    Requiring a tag registration is basically a seizure since if you never put a tag on it, you cannot sell it legally.

    I wonder what it would take for the GA seller to put a tag on the car - what would GA want to do that?

    I know in OH, PA residents near the state line would get a PO box in OH and claim residency there to evade PA plates and inspections. The rule in OH was something like if you ever planned on becoming an OH resident, you could be one right now - or was that TX?
     

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