Register now to get rid of these ads!

Ethanol

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 48bill, Sep 2, 2006.

  1. 48bill
    Joined: Mar 27, 2001
    Posts: 384

    48bill
    Member

    Today's Wall Street Journal had an article about how ethanol is ruining engines in pleasure boats as it is a solvent and since boats have a vented versus closed gas system it creates all sorts of problems.

    Can this also be a problem with many of our cars that have a vented cap rather than a closed system?

    Also they mention that it also breaks down fiberglass gas tanks in boats by dissolving the resin and creating a real sludge problem in the engine.

    Could this be a problem with a "poly tank" from TANKS?

    Also, Street Scene magazine had a blurb a couple of months ago about replacing flexible hose with a #???? new type that won't dissolve with the ethanol.

    Are the Tree Huggers killing us again?

    Bill
     
  2. AZAV8
    Joined: May 3, 2005
    Posts: 997

    AZAV8
    Member
    from Tucson, AZ

    Yes, in ways the Tree Huggers are effecting the cars we hold so dear. Ethanol does dissolve the crud in gas tanks and can adversely effect certain "rubber" hoses.

    You need to be running stainless steel lines and hoses made with "Viton" or another rubber polymer that is resistant to ethanol. Most all gasoline now contains up to 10-15% ethanol so be aware.

    Yes, the ethanol can effect the fiberglass resins in older fiberglass tanks. The fiberglass must be made with an ethanol-resistant resin.

    "Poly" tanks should be resistant to the ethanol, as that is what Ford and other manufacturers are using in their Flex-fuel vehicles. Do not use a zinc-coated gas tank with higher percentage ethanol fuels especially E85. This includes the "Ternplate" tanks. If you are going to use a "poly" tank, make sure the manufacturer will guarantee the tank for use with ethanol fuels, including regular no-lead gas.

    I looked into this issue when I was thinking about putting an E85 capable engine in my truck. There are all kinds of material issues you need to be careful about with ethanol fuels.

    If your area/region doesn't have "special" or reformulated gas for air pollution regulations you are lucky. BUT, be aware, in the future ALL gasoline everywhere will contain some amounts of ethanol as the oxygenator in the fuel. We hot rodders need to be aware of the air pollution regulations and the type of "gas" we will be forced to burn. Especially if you make cross-country trips. What gas you buy at home may not be the same as what is available in Phoenix or Chicago or some other city with special air pollution regs set by EPA. Be prepared for material upgrades in your fuel systems to keep your hot rod running.

    And don't think the diesel boys are immune. Low sulfur diesel is going on the market this Fall and will be the only thing available after the first of the year.
     
  3. AZAV8
    Joined: May 3, 2005
    Posts: 997

    AZAV8
    Member
    from Tucson, AZ

    Oops! I left out the venting question. Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the air. If you have a tank which is vented to the atmosphere, the ethanol WILL absorb water (humidity) from the air. Thus you end up with water in your fuel. This is especially troublesome to boats as they are constantly in a humid atmosphere. Modern cars are not so susceptable to this problem as they are pretty much closed systems so the gas vapors don't escape to the atmosphere and cause smog. Older cars (like we drive) and boats generally aren't closed fuel systems and therefore the fuel is open to the humid atmosphere.
     
  4. ryangobie
    Joined: Jan 1, 2006
    Posts: 460

    ryangobie
    Member
    from Jersey

    There are some topics in the archive on this along with some good info on the web. I dunno why some people are so resistant to the idea of it. Not practical right now but might be rad in the future. Specially with some of you folks running big ol' compression ratios. Pure ethanol is 117 I believe and E85 is 107?
     

  5. I had to remove the tank liner in my R50 BMW bike and replace it with another type of tank liner(Kreem). Ethanol disolved the BMW liner, gummed up the carbs and intake ports. I have heard of valves being stuck open!!!!!!!!
    I believe the biggest problem with these fuels is that they cannot be mixed with regular fuels...........Some states have 10% ethanol others do not, if you are traveling and mix the two it can clog fuel filters, carbs etc.......just one more thing to worry about.
     
  6. Mudslinger
    Joined: Aug 3, 2005
    Posts: 1,964

    Mudslinger
    Member

    I have had to replace two accelerator pumps on my holly. Long term storage it destroys the diaphram. I put a new one in last fall this spring it started leaking. I have never had that problem before, sure with old parts but not brand new and setting in storage.
     
  7. gasman
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 138

    gasman
    Member
    from Nebraska

    the failure of the liner may not of had anything to do with ethanol it may have just been a crappy lining product like kreem. Ethanol is not what clogs filters its the crap and gasoline varnish in the tank that does, the ethanol just cleans your tank. Ethanol can be mixed with regular gas there is nothing to worry about, we've had it in nebraska for over30 years.
     
  8. Digger_Dave
    Joined: Apr 10, 2001
    Posts: 2,517

    Digger_Dave
    Member Emeritus

    There was a piece on Discovery Channel a couple of weeks ago that indicated that Ethanol can be produced from DIFFERENT organic sources.

    They said (if I remember correctly) it can be produced from; CORN, SUGAR CANE and several types of GRAIN products.
    (the ethanol used in the fuel we buy up in this part of the country is produced from grain grown near where I live)

    Is there DIFFERENT "grades" of Ethanol??
     
  9. Bugman
    Joined: Nov 17, 2001
    Posts: 3,483

    Bugman
    Member

    Ethanol can be made from ANY plant or animal matter because they all contain sugar(even meat and table scraps). We use corn because it has a relitivly high sugar content compared to many of teh opther crops we can grow in teh US, and it's the sugar that ferments into the ethanol.
     
  10. Gasman.............The ethanol actually disolved the BMW liner, (looks like red-ox paint).......I removed the stock liner and replaced it with Kreem. I have used Kreem on motorcycle and auto tanks for many years and have NEVER had a problem. People just don't know how to prep the tank.Back in the 70'S BMW sent out a bulletin to all dealers warning BMW riders not to use "gasohol", (remember that?) because it would eat through the stock liner. You are correct, ethanol cleans the tanks and the product of that "cleaning" clogs the filters.
     
  11. LUX BLUE
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 4,407

    LUX BLUE
    Alliance Vendor
    from AUSTIN,TX

    I am wondering if the stuff we used on the alcohol cars of my racing past would stack up...viton needle and seats, super ninja secret accelerator pumps (the only ones you can buy now) braided stainless hose with viton inner liner (pretty much sure they are all like that now) and the like.

    I know the drag race effort has been using ethanol to "cut"alky for a while now- it makes it less volatile and makes it so you can see a fire- so I would imagine it would work fine.

    I can't imagine a poly tank dissolving due to ethanol- this stuff can sit in a lake of battery acid filled with varsol or carb kleen for years and not dissolve, so why would ethanol attack a poly tank so badly? that's some scary stuff it that is true.

    any words on corrosivity to aluminum? stainless is a bitch to bend...and worse to flare.

    and one last thought...if the octane level is nice and high, that typically means it is devoid of additives to cushion the valves and lube the upper cylinders...anyone feel like investing in a fuel additive company?all we need is LEAD,SULPHUR and ZINC you know...all the good stuff that has vitamins and stuff it it.
     
  12. LUX BLUE
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 4,407

    LUX BLUE
    Alliance Vendor
    from AUSTIN,TX

    I should mention that I am open to this stuff. we are going fast on the water they are selling us now, so going to something else and still going fast can't be that hard.
     
  13. Prop Strike
    Joined: Feb 18, 2006
    Posts: 651

    Prop Strike
    Member

    Use a teflon or viton lined AN type hose. Purge all of fuel system when is car is stored in winter. On a vented system, use a microbiocidal fuel additive occasionally, and keep water sumped from tank. Especially important in hot and/or high humidity areas. 10 percent ethanol or 15% MTBE provides the max permissible limit of 2.7% oxygen by weight when blended with gasoline. Ethanol has a heating value about 15% higher than gasoline. Air fuel ratio is 10.5:1, octane number 100+
     
  14. LUX BLUE
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 4,407

    LUX BLUE
    Alliance Vendor
    from AUSTIN,TX

    isnt perfect stoich something like 15.0:1 with gasoline?
     
  15. Prop Strike
    Joined: Feb 18, 2006
    Posts: 651

    Prop Strike
    Member

    15.5 thereabouts on stoichimetric
     
  16. Prop Strike
    Joined: Feb 18, 2006
    Posts: 651

    Prop Strike
    Member

  17. LUX BLUE
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 4,407

    LUX BLUE
    Alliance Vendor
    from AUSTIN,TX

    so,in theory, you could run a bit leaner on ethanol. I would imagine the consumption rate wouldn't change much, but leaner usually means hotter. I don't know if 10 octane points are gonna be enough to keep an older motor cool enough for steady use in say...a flattie or early olds motor where heat is already a problem. any ideas?
     
  18. Darwin
    Joined: Oct 14, 2002
    Posts: 505

    Darwin
    Member

    Gasoline jets should in theory be too small for straight ethanol or even E85. Ethanol has much less energy per volume so bigger jets would be required to maintain power. Running it willy-nilly in an old flatty sounds like less than a good idea. Upping the compression, rejetting, and replacing incompatible hoses etc. will likely be necessary to get the most out of it. Just dumping a tank of E85 in the ol' flatmobile will probably see you somewhat down on power and mileage. Should cool it a little better though. E10 would probably not be a problem except for plastics compatibility.
     
  19. 48bill
    Joined: Mar 27, 2001
    Posts: 384

    48bill
    Member

    What ia a microbiocidal fuel additive? Brand or product names?

    Thanks
     
  20. louie the fly
    Joined: Jul 3, 2006
    Posts: 178

    louie the fly
    Member

    Hey, when I watch re-runs of the Andy Griffith Show (just kidding) I see pumps that sell ETHYL or something like that. Is that a blended fuel you guys had? Do you still have / use it there? Interested! We have a few places selling Ethanol blended fuels here, I think mainly in the eastern states. I dont think its popular because of its reputation.
     
  21. HighSpeed LowDrag
    Joined: Mar 2, 2005
    Posts: 968

    HighSpeed LowDrag
    Member
    from Houston

    My 150 outboard hates this E-10. First tank full - lost the # 5 cylinder. Put a used power head on, did the sync & link - pings so friggen bad I'm afraid to run the damn thing. Been sitting in the garage for over 6 weeks. My weedeater that I bought last fall (has 30 minutes of use) pings just like my outboard.

    The emissions from my one little household have dropped way off with ethanol fuels cause I'm afraid to run any of my shit for fear of blowing it up.

    Fucking treehuggers.
     
  22. VonMoldy
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 1,555

    VonMoldy
    Member
    from UTARRGH!

    Ethanol can be made from anything with sugar I believe. I bet people distilling their own fule might happen more and more.
     
  23. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,605

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC

    Wahhh wahhh wahhh.... I'm gonna call whine one one for the whiners ang get you guys a whambulance... :eek::D

    E85
    It's easy enough, about 20% bigger jets, clean the tank, replace the old rubber, get you some more comression, or in my case actually get to run the compression I have with real timing.... all in all it's pretty simple... if you're crying about it now, wait a few years it'll get worse... and blame the tree huggers all you want, I actually want the planet to be here and get pissed at people who fuck up the environment willy nilly.... :p:p:p
     
  24. Darwin
    Joined: Oct 14, 2002
    Posts: 505

    Darwin
    Member

    Somebody asked about "Ethyl"? Back in the day it referred to fuel that used tetra-ethyl lead as an anti-knock additive. Ethyl usually referred to higher octane fuel compared to "regular". I think that the Ethyl Corporation was a maker of the additive and they are still around.

    As far as ethanol being some great benefactor of the environment that's just silly. Cars of the last few years are so clean that substituting ethanol for MBTE, the previous additive of choice, has a negligible effect on emissions. The switch was done not for emissions purposes but because MTBE was infamous for getting into ground water from leaky storage tanks. Technically I suppose that is an environmental issue but that situation was unrelated to tailpipe emissions.

    Ethanol is of course touted as a "renewable" fuel because biological feedstocks can be used to make it but the whole process is anything but energy free and in fact to date it's a net energy loser that takes more BTU of energy to produce than is contained in the resulting fuel. Even if it were a break-even situation or perhaps a little to the positive side switching the U.S. fleet to ethanol would require the planting of literally millions more acres of corn or other crops to provide feedstock. That's hardly what I'd call an environmental slam-dunk plus we'd still need that 15% gasoline component 'cuz pure ethanol isn't worth a damn in very cold conditions and needs a good bump to light off properly. Add to all that the significantly worse mileage and all its vaunted advantages turn out to be mostly public relations hog wash.
     
  25. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,605

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC

    There are cold start kits for 100% Ethanol cars so it's really not an issue, as for the "using more energy to produce than is available from the fuel" a lot of that has to do with the methods used and the fact that they are using corn. There are more efficient ways to distill the ethenol and better crops to use. There are two new Ethanol facilities being built in NC right now. One of them is desgined to use all organic waste....
     
  26. Darwin
    Joined: Oct 14, 2002
    Posts: 505

    Darwin
    Member

    It certainly does have to do with the methods and feedstocks. For instance sugarcane is a better feedstock than corn because of the higher sugar content plus the fact that the fibrous waste, bagasse it's called, can be used as a distillation fuel source. Also bio-diesel is being touted nowadays in spite of the fact that it can only be used in relatively small percentages in regular diesel. Assorted other crops are in the running as well. Using organic waste sounds like a good idea on the surface but I'll bet that even that is fairly energy intensive plus no telling what kinds of problematic wastes will be generated.

    I'm also sure that R&D in converting coal into usable fuels is also in high gear nowadays but all the alternatives rolled up together can't really address the portable liquid fuel needs of this country. Presumably it eventually could but it won't be cheap or especially energy efficient or particularly good for the environment. The sole advantage that I can see is energy independence and although I'd like to be out from under the thumb of OPEC as much as the next guy it will be far from a cheap proposition. Hell that might even backfire. The middle east has vast reserves of natural gas which can fairly efficiently be used to make ethanol and for which state-owned oil companies would have to pay jack. Anyone willing to bet that they wouldn't do whatever it took to undercut whatever "self sufficiency" programs we're pursuing here? To be truly self sufficient we'd have to isolate ourselves from the world energy market and that would be a big step indeed if it were possible at all.
     
  27. Bugman
    Joined: Nov 17, 2001
    Posts: 3,483

    Bugman
    Member

    We can't physically grow enough corn to make ethanol our primary fuel. Also, corn is very very hard on teh soil, thats why farmers rotate their crops every year. Brazil was able to produce enough ethanol to sustain it's self only because they can grow sugar cane, which is much easier on the soil so it can be planted year after year, and has a high enough sugar content to make it worthwhile.
     
  28. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,605

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC

    You can rotate crops and use an enzyme to break it down. No problem...


    They're just doing it the hard way right now, kind of a half assed effort if you ask me... There are plenty of farmers here in NC getting paid to not grow shit... Make them grow something, hemp, soybeans, whatever...
     
  29. Prop Strike
    Joined: Feb 18, 2006
    Posts: 651

    Prop Strike
    Member

    I think PRIST is one of the trade names for the additive. Probably others too. Check your local truck stop. This is a big problem with diesel fuels and jet fuels also. It kills the micro beasties that live in the water. They eat your fuel. Their waste is a goo like tar substance. Clogs filters and is corrosive. Ethyl is the high octane stuff of our dreams. Gets its name from the tetraethyl lead in it to boost the octane number. Alcohol (methanol) powered engines run cooler. Ethanol should be similiar as stated above.
     
  30. The Brudwich
    Joined: Oct 3, 2005
    Posts: 788

    The Brudwich
    Member

    Hey guys, lay off the tree huggers. Half of the tree huggers I know think ethanol's a joke. I know it's the enviros that helped get MTBE off the market, but that's because there was evidence that the chemical was hurting/killing people. Not passing any judgements on that one, just saying that it's the farmers and big agriculture companies that are pushing ethanol more than anybody. Not looking for a political debate, but wouldn't necessarily call them tree huggers.

    Just kidding, rail on tree huggers all you want. What do I care? Damn tree huggers!!! Just kidding, again.
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.