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Ethanol Resistant Coating / Plating / Pump Diaphragms?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by enigma57, Dec 7, 2013.

  1. enigma57
    Joined: Apr 12, 2007
    Posts: 251

    enigma57
    Member

    We are forced to use 10% ethanol in my area because we are (too) close to Houston (thanks a lot, EPA). That's bad enough...... But if we have 15% ethanol forced on us here, it will only make a bad situation worse

    ** Question...... Is there a plating or coating (perhaps hard anodizing?) process that will protect aluminum bodied carburettors from the corrosive effects of ethanol without clogging the small internal passages in the carbs? The Weber DCNF carbs I will be rebuilding have aluminum bodies like a Carter AFB and some of Holley's newer carbs (not zinc like most vintage American made carbs)?

    Also...... Is there a source for alcohol resistant (American made) fuel pump diaphragms and for the older (Italian made) Weber carb accelerator pump diaphragms? How about the flexible fuel lines where the inlet side of the mechanical fuel pump is connected to hard tubing run along the frame rail?

    Thanks,

    Harry
     
  2. Andamo
    Joined: Jan 10, 2006
    Posts: 501

    Andamo
    Member

    It's not so much the Ethanol that causes the pitting problems in aluminum, but it comes from Ethanols ability to absorb water. The corrosion shows up when the vehicle is parked for extended times and what the atmospheric conditions are in your area. If this is your situation, and your concern is long term storage, run your tank down as close to empty as you can and then put some non-Ethanol race gas in the tank and run the motor.
    And any place you have rubber in the fuel system, replace it with a material that is Ethanol resistant.
     
  3. enigma57
    Joined: Apr 12, 2007
    Posts: 251

    enigma57
    Member

    Thanks, Andamo! That's good advice! Its very humid here. Usually above 80 - 85% and at times, 95% humidity. Temps range from low 100s in summer to mid-20s in winter.

    At the present time...... Once every couple of months, I add either a can of Seafoam or a container of Sta-Bil to our cars' fuel tanks and when refilling the gas storage containers I use for our lawnmover (in same proportion) along with a small dose of concentrated fuel injector cleaner.

    We also keep our fuel tanks between 3/4 full and topped off, cutting down on the inside surface area of the fuel tank above fuel level which can allow condensation to form and be absorbed by the alcohol content in ethanol-diluted fuel. And we use a good brand of premium grade fuel from stations which are not located in flood prone areas and thereby subject to flood waters contaminating their underground fuel tanks. So far, so good. But will research fuel additives that minimize the damage done by ethanol all the more when I am ready to fire up my '57 Chevy, which will remain carburetted and may sit for some time when not being driven regularly.

    Best regards,

    Harry
     
  4. Andamo
    Joined: Jan 10, 2006
    Posts: 501

    Andamo
    Member

    I just think that ripping apart all the aluminum parts and having a coating applied to the surfaces would probably work, I think if you work backwards it would be less expensive. Adding a bottle of inexpensive Dry Gas to the gas tank at every fill up will help also.
     

  5. enigma57
    Joined: Apr 12, 2007
    Posts: 251

    enigma57
    Member

    Will do! I will look for Dry Gas. Haven't seen it in auto parts stores down here. Every now and then, will see an STP 'Water Remover' product. But not often.

    Will look in general stores and feed stores out in the country for it. Have been canvassing them for motor oils for diesel and 'off road' farm equipment still containing adequate zddp content, so will look for Dry Gas there as well.

    On the carburettors I will be using, they are 40 years old and I will be disassembling them and thoroughly cleaning them before rebuilding and it wouldn't be a problem to coat or plate them using a process that would protect them internally from corrosion, so long as it doesn't plug or diminish the diameter of the small passages (circuits) cast/drilled into them. If there is a process that would accomplish that, I would like to do it when rebuilding and rejetting them. These particular type of Weber DCNF carbs were made dating from the mid-'70s through the early '80s and are becoming hard to find. Were used mainly on high end low production Italian cars and Ducati motorcycles, but also on Aston Martin cars during that time. The set I have here were original to a 1974 Aston Martin series 3, of which only 967 cars were produced. Got them from a fellow in the UK who was restoring his Aston ans was upgrading it to the larger Vantage spec IDF carbs, requiring a different intake to fit them.

    Best regards,

    Harry
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  6. Kwikdraw
    Joined: Dec 3, 2013
    Posts: 4

    Kwikdraw
    Member

    Don't know if it is available in your area, but here I can get something called rec 90....it is 90 octane gas for recreational vehicles (boats,mowers, etc) and has no ethanol. It will cost you about 50 cents or so more per gallon. I run it in all my old stuff....and use stabil marine formula for winter storage. At least it might be a good stop gap til I can get my stuff ethanol ready....
     
  7. Andamo
    Joined: Jan 10, 2006
    Posts: 501

    Andamo
    Member

    Good point Kwikdraw. Here is a link to stations that carry ethanol free gasoline. Just use up your present gas and then put this ethanol free gas in the tank. Probably less expensive, if you have any of these places in your area, than my earlier suggestion of race fuel. But that's still an option since VP Racing Fuels is in Texas. http://pure-gas.org/
     
  8. no55mad
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 1,860

    no55mad
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Joe Gibbs is now selling a product to counter act the ethanol in gasoline. Stabil also has a product for the ethanol woes. TG there is always some product that comes along to counteract progress (for us old car folks anyway). Hope its more than just advertising and snake oil.
     
  9. enigma57
    Joined: Apr 12, 2007
    Posts: 251

    enigma57
    Member

    Thanks, Kwikdraw, Andamo and no55mad! Excellent suggestions and I really appreciate your input. I will check them all out. I am not familiar with any sources for boat, rec vehicle or avgas having no ethanol content in my area, but will look into those as well as the fuel additives mentioned.

    The pure-gas.org website lists no ethanol-free motor fuel in our area (thanks a lot, EPA). I check it every few months hoping to find a source for straight gasoline and will continue to do so.

    I am retired and when my wife retires as well (she is younger than me)...... We are hoping to leave the Houston area in our rearview mirror and move up to the Texas hill country. If we can find a spot far enough away from the larger cities such as San Antonio and Austin I am hopeful that we will be able to locate a source for straight gasoline having no ethanol added.

    Many thanks to you all,

    Harry
     
  10. chopolds
    Joined: Oct 22, 2001
    Posts: 5,854

    chopolds
    Member
    from howell, nj
    1. Kustom Painters

    Ummmm....isn't dry gas a form of alcohol?
     
  11. Andamo
    Joined: Jan 10, 2006
    Posts: 501

    Andamo
    Member

    Yes it is and is mostly Isopropyl Alcohol and from what I've been reading, if the gasoline you're already using contains Ethanol, Dry Gas is a waste of time and money since the Ethanol is already alcohol.
     
  12. Ever seem these, Yes it is a Holley ! Ethanol?

    There was secret recall a few years back.

    Cost me $150 for the flat bed and a rebuild kit I bought before taking it apart.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  13. enigma57
    Joined: Apr 12, 2007
    Posts: 251

    enigma57
    Member

    :eek: Yikes!!! That's what I want to avoid at all cost, divco13! Better to learn what works and what doesn't now than find out the hard way later on.

    These particular 40 year old carbs aren't made anymore and each day they become harder to find in rebuildable condition.

    Note to self...... Nix the 'Dry Gas'...... Check! Thanks, chopolds and Andamo.

    Best regards,

    Harry

    P.S. >>>> Just heard from a friend in Brazil. He said the government there decreed that ethanol be used since 1981 (they raise a lot of sugar cane down there). About 12 years ago, the refineries there (they are all state owned) were instructed to increase the alcohol content to 20 - 25%. He said that when cars there ran carburettors on ethanol (before EFI), the carbs were electroplated (nickle plated) to protect them from the corrosive effects of ethanol. Further, he noted that the newer US made (unplated) Holley carbs seem to fair well there, but the ethanol wreaks havoc with the new Edelbrock carbs. Interesting.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2013
  14. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,793

    tfeverfred
    Member

    Couldn't you just run your car for 20 minutes every few days?
     
  15. enigma57
    Joined: Apr 12, 2007
    Posts: 251

    enigma57
    Member

    Would that help? I'd be willing to try it, Fred.

    I was thinking that if any water is absorbed by the alcohol, it will eventually separate and settle to the bottom of the carburettor fuel bowl and the bottom of the gas tank and corrode them unless the surfaces were protected in some way, since the gasoline and alcohol are lighter and would float on top of any water that separated.

    But if it will help to run the engine a couple times each week when the car isn't being driven regularly, I'll do it.

    Thanks for the idea,

    Harry
     
  16. k9racer
    Joined: Jan 20, 2003
    Posts: 3,091

    k9racer
    Member

    I have several cars {11} with carbs and I don't have time to drive. I mounted a Ball Valve cut off close to the tank. When parking the cars I let them run out of fuel their by pickling the system................ All the old Harley guys do this evert time they park their bikes......................... Years ago when running alcohol in my circle track cars we would drain and remove the tank then run the fuel system dry after that oil up the fuel pump ,lines. and carb. Lots of work. This got old so after a hot fire I switched back to gas.
     
  17. JeffB2
    Joined: Dec 18, 2006
    Posts: 8,578

    JeffB2
    Member
    from Phoenix,AZ

  18. carpok
    Joined: Dec 29, 2009
    Posts: 402

    carpok
    Member
    from Indy

    Hi Harry interesting topic, I've seen that white chalk mess in quite a few carbs. I had no idea what it was from. I can see it causing all kind of problems down the road. Ron
     
  19. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,793

    tfeverfred
    Member

    Well, it seems that the problem comes from a car, and it's gas, sitting over a period of time. I have never seen a study on how long that takes. I use Marvel Mystery Oil and Star-Tron Enzyme Fuel treatment regardless of how long my car sits. They're both great products.

    Now, my car gets driven almost everyday. A couple weeks ago, Houston had a wet & cold spell that lasted a week or so. Every couple days, I'd go out and run my car for about 20-30 minutes. Lean on the tail end and bounce her a little bit to slosh the tank. That's it.

    Everyone keeps saying it comes from a car sitting over. Well, when you're drivin' around, all you're doing is running gas through the carb and the road bounces your car. So, I figure crank it up and slosh the tank every couple days. If it comes from sitting, don't let her sit.

    I also top off my tank, if it's going to sit a few days, to cut down on the condensation.
     
  20. Andamo
    Joined: Jan 10, 2006
    Posts: 501

    Andamo
    Member

    The problem with the water isn't so much as having free water in the tank bottom, but the water that's an emulsion mixed with the gasoline/ethanol. So it actually stays in suspension and moves through the fuel system with ease.
     
  21. I used to be a metal plater. Anodizing a carb would be a real pain due to all the passageways and blind holes. It might stop or slow the corrosion, but it would not be easy to do all over the carb. Maybe the bowls, but the trouble with that is unmachined cast aluminum almost always looks terrible and getting a decent color out of it is a bitch.

    I recently rebuilt my 1850-3 Holley, and called them up to ask about it. It seemed like they didn't want to make ethanol-proof parts. That kinda pissed me off. I hope somebody in the aftermarket steps in and addresses the problem.
     
  22. enigma57
    Joined: Apr 12, 2007
    Posts: 251

    enigma57
    Member

    That's interesting, Jeff! Never thought about adding Marvel Mystery Oil to the fuel tank. I add Seafoam every now and then and at times, Sta-Bil. Have also used STP 'Diesel Fuel Treatment' which is supposed to 'protect the pump from wear'. Yes, I know...... Its for diesel. But it works just fine in our gasoline/ethanol powered cars. I'll try some Marvel Mystery oil in the tank and see how it works.

    I do add 4 oz. of Marvel Mystery Oil to my crankcase when changing oil. Its not snake oil...... Just a highly refined oil and gets in all the small places and helps lubrication generally. Also quietens the lifters. Two of my sons' wives have daily drivers with the 3.5 litre MOPAR V6 engines which are noted for noisy valve trains and manufacturer recall to replace worn valve gear. I bought them all a big bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil for Fathers Day a couple of years ago. The noisy valve train problems and premature valve train wear have gone away and they have not had to take their cars to the dealer again to have the recall work done to the other bank (the Chrysler dealer only did the recall work on the side that was worse and they were about ready several months later to have to have the other side done as well).

    Thanks for the tip,

    Harry

    P.S. >>>> In the link to Hemmings that you posted, I understand all of the items suggested except for this one......

    Would you know what 'fogging solution' they are speaking of and how it is introduced into the fuel bowl?
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
  23. enigma57
    Joined: Apr 12, 2007
    Posts: 251

    enigma57
    Member

    I'll give that a try when its time to set the car up for a while, k9racer. Sounds like a good idea in addition to the other things suggested here.

    Thanks a lot,

    Harry
     
  24. enigma57
    Joined: Apr 12, 2007
    Posts: 251

    enigma57
    Member

    Yes, I see what you mean Andamo. There is that aspect to deal with in addition to the water separating and settling to the bottom of fuel tanks, carb fuel bowls,etc. when the car sits for any length of time. I have seen an increase in cars and trucks that use paper filter elements in fuel filters choking off flow over time as the paper filter elements swell over time from absorbing moisture in the fuel.

    Perhaps the a diesel type water separater type filter would be good to add to a low point in the system where the water it collects can be periodically drained off?

    Thanks for the idea,

    Harry
     
  25. enigma57
    Joined: Apr 12, 2007
    Posts: 251

    enigma57
    Member

    Thanks for the insight into the difficulties with plating cast aluminum, re-animator. I was concerned about plugging off the small passages cast/drilled into the carb bodies when electroplating.

    After reading over the comments here, I am thinking more along the lines of using additives regularly to minimize the effects of ethanol and adding a diesel type water separater for when the car is regularly driven. And when it will sit idle for some time, adding a ball type fuel shutoff valve and after shutting the valve, running the carbs dry.

    I know that Holleys are run on alcohol at certain tracks, so there should be a source for alcohol resistant accelerator pump diaphragms and such for them. But for these 40 year old Webers I have here to rebuild, I haven't found anything like that yet. Same for the Carter mechanical fuel pump diaphragm. Will keep looking, though.

    Many thanks,

    Harry
     
  26. sumner41
    Joined: Oct 2, 2009
    Posts: 32

    sumner41
    Member

    Star-Tron is a great product. I heard there is a move in govt. to remove etanol mandate. Ethanol is a solvent,this why it causes damage. It actually decreases gas mileage. This was foisted on us by the corn lobby to increase sale of corn. PURE GARBAGE. No real advantage. Here in central florida,in some places ,one can purchase ethanol free gas for boats. Small engines REALLY HATE this stuff. And with ethanol,GAS goes bad in as little as 2 weeks. I use ethanol free in my portable generator and star-tron in my car Good Luck
     
  27. jkeesey
    Joined: Oct 12, 2011
    Posts: 652

    jkeesey
    Member

    Just FYI I have had an issue with the Star-Tron additive. One of my customers has had 2 of his gas tanks sealed with Damon Red Kote. 1 tank was put into service and the other on the shelf. After 4 years of use and adding Star-Tron every tank it has loosened the sealer and allowed it to flow through the entire fuel system and even stick the valves open in the engine. This has cost him around $1,500 to repair. I got the MSDS sheet for Star-Tron and its greater then 95 percent pure Naptha.
     
  28. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 1,258

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    Hey, enigma57;

    AFAIK; "fogging solution" would be "fogging oil". I've used it in engines for storage. It's a kinda medium-weight oil, under pressure in a spray-bomb can, that sprays/foams (kinda looks like a fog) out of the nozzle tip extension, coating everything it gets near. Actually works rather well to coat the cyl/head/valve w/a layer of oil.

    FWIW.

    Marcus...
     
  29. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 7,032

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

  30. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,906

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Ok, we have been forced to use 15% ethanol for about 15 years now in the Phoenix area, and I have never had much in the way of problems with it's use. Bare in mind I have never owned a late model car, so ALL of my experience is on topic.

    As long as the car is driven, it seems to not effect stuff too badly. When the it is allowed to sit with full float bowls and moisture can collect, then problems arise. A good way around that is to install a petcock in your fuel line so you can shut it off and run the carb dry while sitting for extended periods of time. Sitting dry forever opens a whole new can of worms, but just use the car and it isn't a big deal. I have never owned anything I haven't used a s a daily driver.

    As far as your DCNFs, those were also a very common '70s and '80s VW performance carb, and not at all uncommon at swaps catering to VWs, especially out here in the west. The thought of having to go to England for carbs or parts is nuts, and you'll find support stuff for that through companies like Red Line, and Pierce Manifold fairly easily. e=bay is also pretty well stocked at most times, too.
     

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