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EPA expected to OK more ethanol in gas

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 48fordcoe, Oct 13, 2010.

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  1. 48fordcoe
    Joined: Feb 18, 2008
    Posts: 113

    48fordcoe
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    [​IMG]
    FILE - In this May 24, 2006, file photo, a tanker leaves the Tall Corn Etha...




    WASHINGTON (AP) - The Environmental Protection Agency is expected to approve higher concentrations of ethanol for newer vehicles, raising the maximum blend of the corn-based fuel with gasoline from 10 percent to 15 percent. The EPA is expected to say as soon as Wednesday that cars manufactured since 2007 are able to handle the higher ethanol content, according to people with knowledge of the announcement. The sources spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the decision.
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    The ethanol industry has maintained that there is sufficient evidence to show that a 15 percent ethanol blend in motor fuel will not harm engine performance. But the auto industry, environmentalists and a broad coalition of other groups have argued against an increase and called for more testing.
    Opponents argue that the increase in production of corn and its diversion for ethanol making animal feed more expensive, raising prices at the grocery store and tearing up the land. Manufacturers of smaller engines—used in everything from lawn mowers to boats—also oppose increasing the use of the corn-based fuel, saying those engines are not designed for the higher concentrations.
    The EPA has said a congressional mandate for increased ethanol use can't be achieved without allowing higher blends. Congress has required refiners to blend 36 billion gallons of biofuels, mostly ethanol, into auto fuel by 2022.
    The ethanol industry has argued that increased consumption of the renewable fuel creates new jobs and replaces imported oil. The industry group Growth Energy petitioned the EPA to raise the blend in March. The agency is expected to make a second decision on the ethanol concentration allowed in cars manufactured between 2001 and 2007 after testing is completed at the end of November. If the higher blends are not allowed for the older cars by the time the 15 percent blend is on the market, it could cause confusion at the pump as different cars would be eligible for different blends of gasoline.
     
  2. Pitbullgoingpostal
    Joined: Jan 2, 2009
    Posts: 408

    Pitbullgoingpostal
    Member

    More details released with the same opening statement:

    The Environmental Protection Agency is expected to announce Wednesday that it has approved motor fuel with higher blends of ethanol for use in newer vehicles, but is still weighing the use of such blends in older cars and trucks, administration and industry sources said last night.
    The agency will grant a waiver to existing rules to allow the use of E15 - made with 15 percent ethanol and 85 percent gasoline - in cars made in model year 2007 or more recently.
    But the agency is still awaiting Energy Department test results on 2001 through 2006 models to make sure that the higher ethanol content doesn't harm engines, said the sources, who spoke on the condition of anonymity ahead of the announcement. EPA administrator Lisa Jackson has indicated in the past that those tests should be complete by the end of November.
    An ethanol industry source said that a labeling program would also be announced to help assure that motorists with older vehicles don't mistakenly fill up with the wrong type of fuel.
    The ruling would apply to 18 percent of cars; if extended to 2001-2006 vehicles it would be more than 36 percent of the vehicle fleet. Growth Energy, an industry group, applied for a waiver of the E10 limit in March 2009.
    Big agriculture companies and ethanol distilleries have been pressing for an increase in the limit on ethanol in motor fuel because the nation's overall ethanol production is approaching 10 percent of motor fuel use, a point commonly known as the "blend wall" by people in the industry.
    The ethanol industry is expected to produce 10.6 billion gallons this year, substantially less than its capacity.
     
  3. Shaggy
    Joined: Mar 6, 2003
    Posts: 5,208

    Shaggy
    Member
    from Sultan, WA

    Guys from nebraska and iowa can rejoice, the rest of us can frown
     
  4. Dynaflash_8
    Joined: Sep 24, 2008
    Posts: 3,012

    Dynaflash_8
    Member
    from Auburn WA

    iv noticed that my motor kinda likes ethanol as long as its fresh fuel. Let it sit for a week or 2 and its garbage.
     
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  5. Shaggy
    Joined: Mar 6, 2003
    Posts: 5,208

    Shaggy
    Member
    from Sultan, WA

    What i've read about ethanol (all stuff off of here) Is that it loves compression up to 14to1 on a normal perfomance rig, because it burns cold, but it also soaks up a ton of water from the air. That explains a lot where i am because we have a couple gas stations that from time to time have some pretty bad gas lately.

    More inportanly it takes something like 30% more to run proper, meaning it actually costs more to run. This is ignored when it is discussed by goverment officials that apperently know more than car guys, let by the old midwest corn growing congressmen and senators that have been in office for decades...... but that's my take and that is about as political as i'm gunna get or ryan will do his job and shut this down
     
  6. Dynaflash_8
    Joined: Sep 24, 2008
    Posts: 3,012

    Dynaflash_8
    Member
    from Auburn WA

    yea, my sbc is about 10.5-1, and it loves the stuff. Iv been tempted to play with some E-85 and see what i can get with that . Only problem is they dont have it anywhere close.

    Hey Shaggy, you still need that stock flathead intake?
     
  7. Shaggy
    Joined: Mar 6, 2003
    Posts: 5,208

    Shaggy
    Member
    from Sultan, WA

    I dunno, my uncle wasnt home when i called him, so i'll get back to ya when he gets back to me, there is anouther guy closer, only across town i might check with too, who is parting a early 50's P/U too. If you are stockpiling mills i can get you intouch with him he's a hamber too
     
  8. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 3,865

    Truckedup
    Member

    Reading this stuff there's some details that may be in the way.Like the additional pumps and storage tanks needed for the E15. Who's gonna pay for that?
    This is a bone thrown to the corn growers and Ethanol industy and they are gonna choke on the bone ....
     
  9. Von Rigg Fink
    Joined: Jun 11, 2007
    Posts: 13,428

    Von Rigg Fink
    Member
    from Garage

    They never learn.
    so many ethinol plants were built, than shut down..I work in an industry that fireproofed so many of these units.Than they got moth balled. The "powers at Be" have very very short memories.
    I hope this and some of their other stupid ideas lands them in the unemployment lines.

    you know what you have to do..
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2010
  10. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    it's not the engine thats the problem, it eats your fuel system, everything from the lines to the carburators. it forms acids that just destroy it. this is another way to force older cars off the road. i can't even keep a diaphram in my lawnmower carb, at 10 percent. it just disolves
     
  11. living in a corn fuel state of minnesota it was so nice going on atrip to Missouri and finding cheep permium and no corn gas:D

    in minnesota it is almost impossible to find a station with premium fuel in fact the MSRA publishes a list of plasces with NON -oxengated fuels

    and that stuff sure rots in your tank and can foul your engine and carburetor
     
  12. customcory
    Joined: Apr 25, 2007
    Posts: 1,832

    customcory
    Member

    I think Hemp would make a better fuel.:D
     
  13. chubbie
    Joined: Jan 14, 2009
    Posts: 2,275

    chubbie
    Member

    i'm from Iowa, I've used blend gas for years! lawn mower, chainsaws, weed wacker, pontoon, cars and truck with out a problem. there are still people here that haven't tryed it. we have a choice of gas, reg.87 octain, 89 oc.10 %, and pure gas pemium 91 oc., and E-85. I've never tryed the E-85
    25 years of use..NEVER had ethanol eat away at any gaskets, hoses, or anything else!!!!!!!!!!!!! stay with facts! don't dwell on myths and 1/2 truths!!!!

    ethanol will atract water!!

    ethanol will lower performance, because of a lower burning BTU,

    ethanol will not increase performance in a low 8 to 1 compression engine!

    so... never store any thing with a full tank of ethanol, change your fuel filters,

    use it in your higher compression engines!!

    quit your bitchen!
     
  14. KS Fats
    Joined: Aug 19, 2005
    Posts: 83

    KS Fats
    Member

    There is some truth to that; the cellulosic parts of the plant could be converted to ethanol leaving the rest to be disposed of by what ever means you deem appropriate. It also requires no fertilizer,pesticides or ammonia and doesn't require irrigation, the net energy savings on that alone is what makes switchgrass a better solution than corn. A little known fact is that it requires a 553 to 1 ratio of water input ( irrigation + distillation) to produce 1 gallon of ethanol from corn; when the aquafers run dry, Kansas and Nebraska will be deserts.....thats not something I want to leave my kid.....fats
     
  15. Jalopy Jim
    Joined: Aug 3, 2005
    Posts: 1,867

    Jalopy Jim
    Member

    Minnesota has had 15% blend for years.
     
  16. Von Rigg Fink
    Joined: Jun 11, 2007
    Posts: 13,428

    Von Rigg Fink
    Member
    from Garage


    Word

    a few have already run dry

    new age dust bowl coming your way, thanks to the narrow minded ones, that never learned from the previous attempts

    not to mention the stupidity in using a food source, or feed source for energy..real bright
     
  17. djust
    Joined: May 31, 2006
    Posts: 1,230

    djust
    Member
    from Oklahoma

    I am glad the gas stations around me give us the choice to buy corn free gas for now.
     
  18. Someone more learned than I can probably clarify this, but from what I've read it seems that there would be no ethanol if it were not for heavy government subsidies as it costs more to make than the energy it can produce. Kinda like selling twenty dollar bills for fifteen dollars and still making a profit, because the government will cover the loss.
     
  19. Von Rigg Fink
    Joined: Jun 11, 2007
    Posts: 13,428

    Von Rigg Fink
    Member
    from Garage


    they arnt covering the loss..Us tax payers are:mad:

    so were getting fucked in both holes, and not getting kissed..nothing new there
     
  20. Beebeebobby
    Joined: Sep 5, 2010
    Posts: 224

    Beebeebobby
    Member
    from Webb City

    I hope the aftermarket does something to keep the older cars like ours from becoming impossible to get on the road. I used it in a motorcycle and it does harm the rubbers...etc.
     
  21. Interesting artifact for us desert dwellers and ethanol.

    My daily driver truck and my hot rod truck are fuel injected,both are well tuned and in very good condition. I noticed a drop of 1 to 1.5 MPG when Arizona would switch to the blended fuel. We had a winter and summer blend, until we had a pipline issue some 7 years ago. If this drop in mileage was coupled with a lower cost it would be fine but as it were consumption is up and therefore road tax revenues are also up. (nudge nudge)

    The interesting thing is the boiling point of ethanol or other alcohol additives. The boiling point of ethanol is 172 if I recall. It is not unusual to see fuel tanks on road going cars reach temps of 180 degrees. Think about it for a second, the road surface can reach temps in excess of 160 degrees and will absorb the radiant heat from that road surface. The fuel is also circulated through the engine compartment on on a modern car those underhood temps are above 220 degrees most times. Short distance driving will show little effect but long term driving in these conditions really raises the fuel temp. The ethanol can literally be boiled off leaving you with 10 to 15% percent less fuel in extreme cases.

    This is also why your car is more prone to vapor locking now. Non pressurized or low pressurized fuel systems (early carbs require low pressures) will boil off quicker and can form pockets of vapor inside the lines easier than high pressure systems.

    http://www.chemcases.com/converter/converter-24.htm
     
  22. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,559

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC

    Yep, the sky is falling, the sky is falling...

    same here in NC...


    I say crank it up so I can buy 97 octane all day every day...
     
  23. slickschoppers
    Joined: Mar 15, 2007
    Posts: 160

    slickschoppers
    Member
    from Iowa

    that is actually "almost" a pretty well known fact.

    How much "NEW" water do you think an ethanol plant requires for distillation?

    not 553 to 1 or even CLOSE.

    first off very few in iowa irrigate the crops. maybe so in other states.

    then you have to look at the plant design. is it an ICM, Broin, Poet?

    Icm is a closed loop system, the water is treated and ran back through the process again and again, and again, the extra heat from the stacks is run through the plant for heating , process heat, ect.

    these plants run EXTREMELY efficient.

    they are also ZERO emmissions. YEP ZERO.

    the "smoke" you see from the thermal oxidizers (the stacks) is not smoke at all, it is pure 100% steam.

    the DNR, state, and federal government monitor all stack and ANY emmissions from the plants.

    the very small amounts of water that are discharged from teh plants into ponds is minimal,, it is actually cleaner than the tap water you will find in your town.

    as others have said, I've lived in Iowa my whole life, never had ANY problems with a vehicle, weedeater, mower, boat ect running ethanol where it "ate" something.

    the fact is if you don't like it and don't want it.... don't buy it. Iowa still and always has offered a NON-ethanol blend.
     
  24. Shit, don't be clouding the emotional arguments with facts now. Chicken Little won't know what to do!:D
     
  25. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    you'll probably never see it in the gas stations, because it doesn't subsidize the big farms, but they have finally come up with a solution for 100 ll av gas, it's made out of leftover plant materials, but contains no alachol which damages systems on airplanes, and is illegal to put in an aircraft, it's 100 octane, no lead, but aircraft engines designed for lead work great on it with no damage. it's about to go into production and directly replaces the 100 LL at aircraft fuel pumps, goes straight into the tanks with no modifications needed. It's the perfect fuel to run cars on also, but since it doesn't fit the governments agenda, so you won't see it at your local fuel station. I'm sure the epa will figure out a reason to also make it illegal in cars. no lead in it to mess up modern cars, but they will find a reason. It's probably the perfect fuel for Hot rods too. A simple aircraft engine with magnetos is the simplest basic engine there is.
     
  26. Von Rigg Fink
    Joined: Jun 11, 2007
    Posts: 13,428

    Von Rigg Fink
    Member
    from Garage

    as a pilot I have been hearing about this too..but if its "illegal" why are they still persueing it or producing it?
    are they working on the "legal" end of it?
    Just curious i havent heard much more on that..
    and if its produced and sold at my local FBO..legal or not if it works in my hot rod they gotta catch me first
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2010
  27. RAY With
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 3,133

    RAY With
    Member

     
  28. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    illegal for cars, even though it wouldn't damage a thing, it's perfectly legal for aircraft, it's already approved as a direct replacement
     
  29. Von Rigg Fink
    Joined: Jun 11, 2007
    Posts: 13,428

    Von Rigg Fink
    Member
    from Garage


    i'll be watching for it;)

    do you know what its cost is? is it same as we are paying now for 100LL? or more..on an average?
     
  30. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    it's supposed to be the same, that was the idea, the guy who came up with it is a pilot and he wanted to make sure his grandkids would still be able to fly. there needs to be a petition to allow it in cars, the only reason avgas isn't allowed in cars now is the lead. Of course the epa will just say it's avgas and it's the same, even though it has no lead. They ran a ton of tests and no seat damage and no valvetrain damage whatsoever, It may be higher then 100 as far as octane, I read the entire article, but I can't remember off the top of my head. they can make it from pretty much anything plant based, but of course the special intrests in washinton don't want to see it on the road.
     
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