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Technical English wheels, hand held & what's with the flat shoe?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 31Vicky with a hemi, Mar 26, 2018.

  1. Yes Tig welding, 0.040 rod and the gap is 0.02 or less.
    Spot tacked every 2" adjusting as I go working my way around the perimeter & grinding after every 5 or so tacks. Then I jump around with tacks 1/2" off of those then jump around with 1/2 off the first set the other way. Grind and adjust. I weld the 1" open sections and adjust hammer dolly as I go. Then I come back jump around and weld the 1" thru that first tack doing the same thing. It might take me a to week scrape up enough time to weld that much on this car. It's like 120" on each quarter and half of it is in the open field 2'' away from the beads - might as well call it the middle of a low crown panel.

    Now it looks like it's been kicked by a really pissed off mule. I'm going to guess here that it's being hammered too much during the process. Instead of the welds pulling the distortion in that its my hammering stretching the edges of the panel.
    There's metal magician guys who fit the panel tack it and weld it from one end to the other without stopping, then come back and finish it off and you can't even tell they were there. I wish I didn't know that because it's really pissing me off.
  2. It sounds like you and I went to the same School. I feel your pain for sure. It does sound like maybe over working the weld could be the issue. There is a fine line between to much and not enough. Not sure how to advise from here. It is a hands on feel for sure and I think Luck has a lot to do with a large section like your doing.
    The Wizzard
  3. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 29,272


    Electrically welded? o_O Bob
  4. toreadorxlt
    Joined: Feb 27, 2008
    Posts: 733

    from Nashua, NH

    If your distortion is beyond the area of your HAZ, your panel is under uneven tension prior to welding it in. When wheeling, angle or attack, coverage, overlap, and pressure should all be even.

    It’s my opinion, regurgitated from fay butler, that It is extremely difficult to achieve a panel with even tension on a wheel. I’ve experienced it a ton, especially on a roof insert I have tried to weld in knowing it was t finished, but it was oversize for me to handle.

    I notice when I take a panel off my planisher, I get less drama. A direct consistent hit is easier to achieve on a planisher Than a wheel for me. I will run wheeled panels through a planisher to help even out the tension. You can feel and hear a panel under even tension.
    The37Kid likes this.
  5. Light bulb moment , thanks !

    Well, that's me I guess. Un even tension.

    When I took @cornfieldcustoms class, they said that the squeeze shrinkers and stretchers do a good job curving stuff but that the results won't stay where you left them if you need to do more work. Better to use a power hammer and shrinking dies if that's the case. At the time that didn't make much sense,,,,
    but it hits right on the money with your un even tension remarks.

    A very large portion of the rear 1/4's field panel is welded to an edge that was ran thru the shrinker or stretcher, plus the area of the bead was pre shrunk knocked in and then re shrunk on the edge and a good portion of the panel's weld is right thru mid way of the bead. Plus the field panels were not planished, just lightly rolled. All those pluses add up to a fair amount of Uneven tension on both sides of the joint I'd imagine.

    Come to think of it, when I did the great big ass roof, the only places I had a lot of trouble (much less trouble than the quarters BTW) was where there was a lot of shrinker action. On the two front corners and both rear corners. It took some bumping but I'm really happy with the roof.

    The yellow is where the shrinker was and blue is the stretcher
    The37Kid likes this.
  6. 270bob
    Joined: Mar 26, 2014
    Posts: 66


    I would start over.
  7. or....bondo the next one better......:oops:
  8. 3rd times a charm ?
    The drivers side is really close to almost good enough :p
    If I get it To 1/8 of filler it will be fine.
    I haven even started bumping on the passenger side yet.

    I pealed 3/4 to 1/2 of bondo off of it 4 yrs ago.
    The37Kid likes this.
  9. 270bob
    Joined: Mar 26, 2014
    Posts: 66


    Take two pieces of scrap metal and tack them together like your were doing your panel on the car. Only tack weld every half inch or so, then weld the seem continuously. Then hammer back to position, that is all the hammering have to do. Secondly, Looks like your welding with to much heat or you are welding to slowly. I welded in a roof insert into a Model A Tudor this afternoon. My heat marks are half as wide as yours shown in the photos. Only trying to help, not bragging or putting your down. You can do this.
  10. i appreciate any help and ball busting.
    It's the car, it's just one pain in the ass after another and each one is bigger than the last with this thing. Should haul it off to the crusher already. Sometimes when nobody is around and the car is really pissing me off I tell it all about those big shredders.

    Everything else around is relatively painless
    I did this a few weeks ago. Someone else's car, if it were for my car it would have been a potato chip mess.
    Cut the bad part off, welded on new piece big for the bead roller fence. ran it thru the bead roller for the misding half of the jump in the new piece cut it off to size. Took a couple hrs. The hardes part was getting the cut really nice so the wild end of the piece was in the right place for the bead roller fence.
    image.jpeg image.jpeg

    This was welded on the other side, back side of the weld
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
    tb33anda3rd and The37Kid like this.
  11. 270bob
    Joined: Mar 26, 2014
    Posts: 66


    It seems all cars take on a personality of some sort, but the problem is not the car, you are being challenged. The recent panel in the pics you just posted is a different repair. This is like comparing apples to oranges. One panel you are welding 360 degrees and the other is just on ones side. Still looks like your welds are not as uniform as I would like to see. I can't run a keyboard for shit, if you want to talk give me a call.
  12. So in reading about un even tension it makes sense an all. I'm not sure I agree with the planishing hammer solution. I don't even own one but that don't mean your not correct. I do pretty well on my Wheel when making a panel such as yours. I think the un even tension is created in the weld process, a pulling at the seam if you will. If you roll a panel properly the tension Is even when done in my book. On occasion I have had lows appear while welding in a panel. I have always saved things by just working the weld. I have had to cut things loose a few times to get back to square one. When I did the top on the 34 Sedan I rolled the panel in one section and just perimeter welded it. No waffels thank God. I do think there's some Luck that goes with this. This took about 6 hours over two days to weld and finish to what you see. I was a little younger back then.
    The Wizzard

    Attached Files:

  13. Progress

    For me, I think the hardest thing is hand reading an entire panel for highs and lows when you can't see the reflection. Easy to go from centimeter to centimeter and tell but for me it's the end to end read that's rough, my hands are blind.

    so I took a 2" wide rule and drew myself a grid so I wouldn't get lost and could see.
    Took a that rule and moved it across the grid in as many different orientations as I could looking for consistent highs and lows end to end in horizontal, vertical different degrees of diagonal. I found individual grid squares that would show both high and low depending on the orientation so I marked those with a X , the clearly high ones with an H and the clearly low with a L. Wish I had a picture of that. Now I could "see" with my eyes what my hands can't. Then I started rubbing that panel without looking, Hands feel a high spot but eyes see a sea of L ??

    I put the body file up and got a 12" plywood disc with 120 grit on it. Dug out my file slapper, my doughnut dolly. Then I just went after the "H" squares. Then the flex rule and marker again. Brought the "L" squares up and flex rule and marker.

    The awkward to work areas and out of reach areas still need some work and I'll have help on Monday. But the big shiny spot is ready to prime and block. Might need a little filler by the door jamb. Drawing the grid might be stupid but fuck it, I need a crutch.
    pat59, RMR&C and tb33anda3rd like this.
  14. razoo lew
    Joined: Apr 11, 2017
    Posts: 521

    razoo lew
    from Calgary

    ....getting there is more important than how you look on the trip. Good idea on the grid.
  15. Well done. I do Grids on just about everything. I have a pair of 53 F-100 doors that need the bottom 8" replaced. The existing skins have very good shape, just full of pin holes. To just roll out a compound panel freehand is more than I can do so I do a grid on the Door in 6" squares and fold up some 20 Gauge angle pieces and with my Shrink/Strecher make contour gauges if you will for each 6" line in both directions. Now to check how my Crown is coming in both directions all I do is lay the right gauge on the right line on the new piece and I know I'm getting there. Kind of a Pollock thing to do and Ron Covoll would just laugh at me but hay, it works. Like you, my feel isn't as good as it could be but I can see the Waffels and Crowns under the gauges.
    The Wizzard
    31Vicky with a hemi likes this.
  16. It's easy to get lost on a larger panel. I'm always making reference marks. Whatever works.
    Also, after filing and dinging, I DA the panel with 180 to remove the previous file marks. Makes a clean slate for filing again to check your work.
    31Vicky with a hemi likes this.
  17. Vicky,
    You're not the only one learning here. Thanks. :)
    31Vicky with a hemi likes this.
  18. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 21,347


    This has been my plan, for years. It has been working out pretty well. Once you get the hang of how a shrinking disc works, you can cure a lot of ills with it.
    31Vicky with a hemi likes this.
  19. jbob1944
    Joined: Jun 12, 2013
    Posts: 49

    from , Co

    This one works really good if you don't need much depth.born 1922..

    Attached Files:

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