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Technical English wheels, hand held & what's with the flat shoe?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 31Vicky with a hemi, Mar 26, 2018.

  1. So I was googling hand held English wheels with the idea on making one, so I could work on the quarters of my car. They are a little lumpy and not co-operating. I don't need them metal finished perfect but I'd like them to be at minimum filler range.

    I stumbled across images of units with one wheel and one flat shoe. I'd imagine it works more like an iron does than an English wheel. I've not seen it before???
    I'd also imagine it's a real bear to work with.


    Isn't this little tipping wheel cool ?!?
    image.jpeg image.png image.png image.png image.png image.png image.png image.png image.png image.jpeg

    Pictures are real deceiving, looks great all buffed down. Kinda like a super model with her make up Lol
    But it Feels like shit

    Here's what it really looks like after a body file, the above pic was before, below is after the body file.
    The super model without the make-up.
    My hands just aren't going to take 47,000 hammer slapper and file taps to get it.
    I'm thinking if I can wheel 1/2 of that out and get it 50% better that would be more than good enough.
    j hansen and chryslerfan55 like this.
  2. I've learned a photo seldom tells a good story. Looking at your quarter the over all shape and file marks look pretty good. I know what you mean about rubbing your hands on them and not liking what I feel. I've learned a good coat of D.T.M. and a light sand changes things real fast. Then add a rag or glove to your hand and things begin to feel much better than they used to. I like the brown cotton gloves, it eliminates the drag you get with your bare skin.
    I've never had a hand held wheel so I can't shed any light on the Flat shoe.
    The Wizzard
  3. Pictures are real deceiving, looks great all buffed down. Kinda like a super model with her make up Lol
    But it Feels like shit.

    Why do you know what shit feels like?
    Don’t you know that’s how you get pink eye? Jeeezzz!!!

    My guess the hand held unit is for just what your looking it to do, smooth a flat panel, not actually make a curve but correct what is already existing on s panel, kind of like an industrial version of the pokers and pins the paint less dent guys use.
    NashRodMan and Hnstray like this.
  4. I was watching some PDR videos the other day. Studying what they did and how they did it.
    I set up a brace system inside the car and pried and poked and bumped a lot of the really big highs and lows with pretty good results.

    If you're gonna touch poop, don't stick your fingers in your eyes
    Atwater Mike and VANDENPLAS like this.

  5. I would surmise that the flat shoe would be useful for removing 'ripples'...
  6. The shadow spots that are probably low can be done with a shrinking disc if you can get to them from the inside. I do that often and just use air to quench. You'd be surprised how well that works. I prefer the smooth disc over the waffle one and use my slow buffer instead of the high speed grinder. Often times if you bring up all the lows you end up with to much Crown in a panel. Better to shrink some times.
    The Wizzard
  7. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 8,656

    from Nicasio Ca

    Here's mine, haven't used it in over a decade. Made this gas tank and seat cowl from aluminum sheet after beating them into a pillow filled with sand. I screwed the thing to a tree. You need some lube on the shoe. Never tried it on steel. They must have had Popeye arms.

  8. john worden
    Joined: Nov 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,787

    john worden
    from iowa

    I see a small tipping wheel in my future. Thanks.
  9. john worden
    Joined: Nov 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,787

    john worden
    from iowa

    I'm bowing low to the Vincent.
    Texas Webb likes this.
  10. Nice bike!
    So you made that tank with the flat shoe, huh??
  11. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 29,293


    Maybe you need to think outside the box, smooth may be over rated. Bob

    49ratfink, tb33anda3rd and Hnstray like this.
  12. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,436


    I'm thinking a planishing hammer may well be what you need. I made one which looks just like the items pictured but with an air powered hammer in place of the wheeling part. I basically removed everything I didn't want from a new HF planishing hammer and made my own frame from tube reinforced with flat bar - not too heavy either. Works a treat on the parts you have sufficient reach for. It's a bit scary in action as I feel as if it's going to overstretch the metal and thereby cause more problems, but this fear has probably held me back so I don't actually achieve what I'm fearful of. :) Also, I made a flat anvil out of some engineering plastic bar - whilst hard and solid it feels (sounds?) somewhat slower and safer and certainly spreads out the blows to give a smooth surface - maybe that's why I've had some good luck with it??

  13. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 8,656

    from Nicasio Ca

    Thanks. Yes, the adjuster screw seems to have vanished but it's the same as the ones you posted. You start out with it loose so it just slides over the lumps then gradually tighten the screw as the lumps smooth out. Worked pretty well actually but it's a workout. Kept the surfaces wet with an aerosol lubricant. I'll send it to you if you want to try it but shipping would be a few bucks.
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,903


    I was ready to suggest a shriking disc as well but figured you might have been there already. I have an outward crease in an aluminum qtr panel, it's behind some serious structural wood too. Do I spend days removing and installing the wood structure? I got some of it out with a rubber hammer and one of those old red sanding blocks as a dolly. I'm thinking the disc will be the salvation. Maybe 'hoping' is more accurate.
  15. I did try the HF hammer frame just for a little bit to see what would happen.
    It's not what hoped for, but it was heavy, awkward and cumbersome.
  16. How deep is the throat?
  17. Don't you have something elecrizical to be working on Bob? :p:D
  18. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 8,656

    from Nicasio Ca

    Or sending those drip rails?;)

    The throat is 16-17".
  19. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 18,607


    Howsabout a bullseye pick?


    They make different tips that are flatter and won't make a harsh ding. I've got a set of various size arms for reaching into tight spots.
    spurgeonforge likes this.
  20. That is pretty cool. Looks handy as can be
  21. image.jpeg
    This is what about 6 hrs of fucking around has gotten me.
    Sore hands, a splitting headache, and some significant progress getting a flexible yardstick to lay even on it. I'd like it better with the file, but,,,,,
    That one section of bead with the pins needs to come out about 1/8" in the middle & I can't move it with a spoon, a slapper, a body hammer, a pneumatic hammer, a one pound hammer or a 2 lb hammer:eek::eek:. I got so pissed off and whaled on it with intentions of sending it into the next building and it still wouldn't move. Till the seam ripped.

    spurgeonforge likes this.
  22. toreadorxlt
    Joined: Feb 27, 2008
    Posts: 733

    from Nashua, NH

    I’d rather over stretch in the planishing phase and use a shrinking disc to level it out. The biggest thing is to get the drama out when forming.

    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
    Rich S. likes this.
  23. Damn! I hate it when that happens. Good thing is now it will probably move pretty easy. Always amazes me how easy things move when you don't want them to and when you do, well that happens.
    The Wizzard
    Joined: May 5, 2015
    Posts: 1,132


    You might have a case of "work harden" metal. You know when you work a piece to long and to hard it becomes brittle and won't move but will snap clean. I say let it go, shoot some primer on it, hit the other side, and come back to it later.
  25. The first quarters would not get with the program in the low crown area so I cut them off.
    I worked and worked the old quarters tried to get them right. Certainly work hardened those and they were dead.When I cut them off the crown arrangements sprung to reverse of how they were on the car.

    Made new ones, rolled the shape into them, knocked the bead into it and the panel fit up real real nice. Now the new ones are acting the same way as the old ones. I think the curve of the wheel lip (not the side view tire radius) is jacked up and pull the panel into weird places. It looks right, feels right but I bet it's not following the the other 2, not to surprising since its was developed out of thin air.

    I got the drives side to here.
    I'd really like better than that but it is much better than where I started and all the oil cans are gone. Moving it around more is bound to bring the oil cans back. AKA better than it was but not as good as it should be.
    image.jpeg image.jpeg

    That drivers side started similar to the passenger side

    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  26. Are you saying the panel did Not have the high's and low's in them prior to welding them in place?
  27. Yep that's correct.
  28. My experience when Waffels appear in a panel "AFTER" welding it in place, generally the cause is in the weld joint. Filling a gap or using a heavy fill rod will cause just what your fighting. I suspect your Tig welding your joints (not sure) but even with that to much fill will pull a panel when cooling. I generally use .035 fill wire or less and .040 Tungsten depending on gauge of material. We all do things differently so I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do anything here, just what may or may not be an issue. Once you ( I ) have a good panel I generally skip tack all the perimeter and keep an eye on any movement. When movement happens I work on just that weld till the stress is removed then move on. For me if I don't fix as I go I never know exactly where the movement came from and there don't seem to be any good way to get back to where it started.
    The Wizzard
    pat59 and Three Widow's Garage like this.
  29. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 10,486

    Johnny Gee
    from Downey, Ca

    Thanks Vicky. I feel pretty darn happy with myself right now. I mean I have beginner to maybe just advanced from beginner skills with sheet metal. But when I've hit a home run at making a patch and the repair piece looks good before I weld the patch into place and all looks dead on then goes south after welding I ask myself. WHY!? Why didn't I have a welder weld this for me. Maybe it's so I won't have to yell at someone like you (figuratively speaking). Actually that's why I do my own stuff. I have only me to be upset with.
  30. Rich S.
    Joined: Jul 22, 2016
    Posts: 296

    Rich S.

    A lot of little tac welds will keep the heat down and it won’t warp. A long continuous weld will warp the crap out of a nice patch panel. You don’t always have room to hammer and dolly hot welds.

    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app

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