Okay, so in the interest on shaving a year or two off our dragster project, we're dialing back our engine expectations and wanting to build a budget engine. Both Mark and I have built street engines before, but never a racing engine, or rather an engine that will be used in a race car. My question is this: when I was a kid, I remember guys who ran econo dragsters saying they were running a stock small block chevy. But I have always wondered, how stock is stock? Is it just stock bore/stroke/heads, or rotating assembly as well? Right now we're aiming to break into the 9's with the econo motor, but wanting to build a block that will stand up to leaning on it into the low 9's/high 8's as we gain the budget and experience to perhaps get a set of heads if possible. So with that in mind, is a scat crank strong enough? What about rods? I was figuring a set of stock 60's camel hump heads on a 350 chevy 4 bolt main block as a basis. We have the 2 1/16" Hilborn setup and are planning on running alky. I know roller rockers are a must. Suggestions?
exactly. Maybe a chebby is cheaper than a donovan but speed costs money. Stock is a realitive term. My 400 hp small block street motor is all stock or stock replacment parts. It is not a race motor (your basic balance and blueprint) its just a healthy street motor, and I can say its stock. Its a stretch but I can say it if I want. Anyway always beware when a racer tells you his motor is stock. Unk is totally correct, Econo Dragster is an oxy-moron.
i would think you should get in the nines , if ya do a little head work , balance the internals and reduce the rotating mass as much as possible
The ultimate dilema - I know it all too well. My suggestion is this: Make the motor plate such that swapping the engine is as simple as possible. I have absolutely no wires, control cables etc goign thru the motor plate so when you have to pull the motor there is nothing else to disconnect or otherwise mess with - just the bare minimum. So why am I not answering your question??? Because if you end up like me - I built an EXTREMELY stock motor for my digger and now that I'd like tpo upgrade I am torn between revamping what I have versus having a SPARE motor - see what I mean? So having said all that - if I were you - I'd build a nice "street" motor and have at it - only things I'd "change" are the clearances you'll want for the alcohol. In my case I went a little extra on the exhaust valve guides. I didn't go nuts on anything else since I wasn't planning on twistin' the motor real tight anyways. I would venture a guess that many a econodragster got by with less crank than the scat you're planning.
build whatever you can afford, and run whatever the ET is. It's still gonna be more fun than standing still
Vox, I ran 9.40's with a 302 Ford years ago, 302 = cast crank, Ford rods, TRW forged pistons, Solid lifter cam, with cast iron "Windsor" heads. The best investment I made at the time was an A-1 Glide with an 8" convertor, I put the same engine in another Dragster with a stock convertor equipped C-4 (car was a little heavier) and ran low 10's. My point is that with OE Chevy pieces you should have NO problem attaining your goals.
to start, like said above do what your budget can afford. a lite car doesnt take much motor. get use to running the car before you get to crazy. if you have never driven one before 9s is fast. work your way up. fast + dollars will get ya there.
A guy around these parts used to street race a Model A P-up with small block mopar engines in it. Mostly 318's as they were easy to find. Light car, stock engine, oh (heh heh) and some nitrous ... thing ran 11's. As a lot of the other posters are saying "light weight doesn't take a lot of power to get moving". Set yourself up with a nice trans and convertor, drop in a carbed SBC anything, and get some seat time at a "test and tune" day.
we run a 350 in a altered 100 inwb its all stock chev apart from the cam which is unknown we use a airgap manifold a proform centre in the carb 650 dp a supermag and some nice headers 350 box with shiftkit and some extra clutches i think and a small dose of nitrs and we have run 9.42@138mph on a very hot day with no air and we plan to go faster at the next event so as they say little engine+smallcar=gofast
When econo first started it was one class. IIRC, the wt/cu.in. formula was designed to keep it below 350 cubes. For the first few months, the index was in the 9.80-9.90 range. This was at a time when Powerglides were just first being experimented with. Most of the first econos were using a single disk clutch and 2&3 of a 3 speed manual and this was on early 70's tires and asphalt. This was also a time when pro teams were circling overhead and ready to attack any index that appeared to be vulnerable. So, econo-rail was only as it was intended for a few months before the econo turned pro-econo. (with experimental powerglides valued more than our entire rig at the time) Another half second was shaved off of the index in short order. So, on todays tires and surface it should be relatively easy to get into the nines on a powerglide and 300 hp. I think that getting the chassis to work well on the goo is probably the biggest part of the equation in running a FED today. As far as what is necessary in an engine for racing, I think it's most important to know a realistic redline for whatever you are running, and sticking with it religiously. (I also think that a rev-limiter should be mandatory for new pilots)
Unless you are looking at a specific class, I'd want the largest motor that fit the budget. That way, you can make some power without turning a lot of rpm.
Well, we're already committed to a small block chevy, and in all honesty, if we were ever to run a class, it would be something like the ANRA's NEIII class with a 9.60 index, but we're really building the car for our own enjoyment and to make an FED that looks like a cacklecar, but can make passes down the track. So other than a kill wire on the Vertex, and whatever bypass wiring we need for the PG, there won't be any electronics on it. No trans brake. In talking to a few other folks that are doing something similar to what we are, (Doug Peterson and Jim Rodarmel mainly) we plan on high gear only launches, have the capacity for 100lbs of ballast in the weight tank and are planning on running 3.90s in the rear and already have 10.5x31 M&H slicks on the car, so I don't think we'll be buzzing the motor in the lights. The powerglide only exists because of the cost of a clutch setup and the regular re-certs for the can. Especially when considering that it won't be a truly fast car in drag racing terms. So the high gear only launches on the footbrake are to avoid running a wheelie bar, although a small period correct caster may be fabbed if necessary. 60 foot times be damned. The car is as much hot rod as race car- probably even morso, because we want to be on the strip to amuse ourselves by running something as period looking as we can make it, rather than aiming to compete in a race series- although casual competition may be in the cards. But right now, events like Eagle Field and the Kingdon Reunion, along with test and tune days at Sacramento Raceway are what we're aiming for.
with the 2 1/16"injectors you will have to keep the motor under 370".high gear is doable but is hard on the direct clutches and you will loose 2 tenths the most important part of your equation is the torque convertor after you have the motor call your favorite trans guy and tell him exactly what you have.Keep us posted on your progress.
I gather your chevy guy sso. here goes. 350 , 030 over 300 hp heads or the Summit or dart equivalents. Iron of corse. Flat tops at least 10 to 1 leaning towards 11 with 64 cc heads. 305 H comp hydrualic am . make suresprings in your heads are good enough. Eddy victor intake. 750 Holley . 5.0 power valve 76 front jets 80 rear. Remove chke horn but leave vent tubes intact. Cloyes roller chain( not true rller or some on ther freaky thing but just the set up like used to be avaiabe for chev trucks. REcurve dist . use med spingsin kit but stock weights . Weld up the advance slot 1/3 . Port match if desired and if you buy 300 Hp heads. Put tgether with felpro blue head gaskets. use the PCV valve . Install fire and hang on. this motor will run to almost 7000 . Will run for ever and will give good stiff Hp and competition to all it runs. It will not cost much and even after you get huge gold to build the Killer bullet you will probablywhat to keep this one as a back up. I have built many of these motors for friends. They work great and are really quite competitive considering. I imagine 9s would be achivable. it will run forever. Don Gearing would be so as to clear the traps at whatever speed you decide you will need for the Et you want to run. (Proably 3.90 or something similar not much more.( i run 3.91 in my fed with a six just so you know. )Peak power is at about 6850. It will however run to 7000 if you need to show off. I would use trw or KB pistons. A low tension ring such as hastings race low tension will give a bit more power at no loss of reliablilty. Don
I don't know your budget for what you are building But start with a 4 bolt main block, buy a set of at least dart heads, and you might be able to find someone getting rid of a aftermarket cola crank for the 350. If not just make sure you use someone reliable for machining the crank. Heads and Cam will make a big difference.
You can take all the advice you can get but if you really want to do it on a budgit you should be able to build real nice HP in an SBC with mostly stock parts for $1000 +/- if you PM me I could tell you how to do it. Speed does cost money but if you just want to break into the 9s it wont take too much with that car. Basically what Rocky said.
just as 48 said I think you will need more gear with a small motor it all depends on how many rpm you want to run through the traps and as LarryT said you need as much compression as you can build on alky I'm building a motor that has .250 dome in 50cc angled milled heads 0 deck .035 head gasket that's the cheap part
Obviously, your budget is the limiting factor. To run alky, you really want plenty of compression. My experience with plenty of healthy small blocks tells me that the key to them hanging together, is good rods/rod bolts, and consistent lubrication. If it were me and my money budget, This would be my recipe. Stock production 2 bolt 350 block, 4 bolt not needed. Stock ground production 350 iron crank Scat I beam 7/16" bolt rods 5.7" rods Cheap forged dome pistons, brand not important. Dome sized for at least 10.75:1 comp with your heads. Heads is the big open ender. I would love to use a set of small valve fuellie's. Nice and fresh, with fresh springs and cheap roller rockers. Home ported in the bowl. No need for screw in studs. But any 1.94 inlet or bigger production small chamber heads would do. If your budget extends to aftermarket heads. IK200's would be perfect. Small solid cam, 240 something at 050, 400 and something thou lift on 110 centres. Should make a solid 400+ horsepower and similar torque, zing to 7000 easy, and love it. If you decide the injection is too expensive to complete and setup, throw on a victor jnr and 750 dp on good pump gas, and it will still run fine. My 2c. Best of luck.
Thanks again guys! We actually already have the Hilborn setup, so we're committed to going that route. Certainly not planning on a big inch motor, so the 370" limit wouldn't be a problem. We plan on going with an old style single wire Vertex and keeping the whole deal simple. Thanks for the tips on the powerglide. Here's a photo of the injection setup:
my front motor setup, 283-30 over, 2 bolt, stock steel crank, brc alum rods, brc 14.5 pistons, 462 double hump heads, block filled to 1/2 inch from top, with moroso block fill, the rest water, crane cam, comp cam stainless roller rockers & girdall, 9 guart pan, milidon gear drive, 80a pump, enderly 2" injection ,alcohol, mikes powerglide, munsinger 6000 stall, 4.86 gear 30" tire, weight 1450 with me, ran 8.90s @ 165 +
voxnut that just like the injector I just bought. emf how tight are you turning the motor in the lights
To answer your crank question....The SCAT 9000 series cranks (cast steel) are surviving many 7000+ RPM cycles per night in budget roundy round motors. If you want a better than stock cast crank on a budget many folks have been having good luck with them.
In the early 80's crewed on a slingshot with a real 302 chev it had a flat tappet cam ,11.5 to 1 pistons, 2.02 angle plug heads, 1.76 glide , 5000 stall , and 4.86 gears.We got a best of 10 flat on the quarter with it . Buzzed it up to 7500 a couple of times with debeamed "pink" rods and it took it well, not bad for a stockish 302. Rob
I would suggest running a two bolt block with splayed steel 4 bolt caps. The machine work to fit them should be reasonable for the reliability you will gain.
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